"Beards are sin!" False doctrine?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother, if I have misrepresented what you intended to say, please accept my sincere apologies. I also extend an invitation to you to explain in your own words what you meant when you said the following . . .

"In fact, and you're really not going to like this, he doesn't have to have scripture and verse to do so. Period. End of story."

Please explain how I am being dishonest when I say that you believe that the pastor should not be held accountable to scripture. If I have misrepresented your position I hope to be man enough to offer sincere apologies. Please proceed to explain what you really meant to say. Maybe then you can respond to the rest of my post with relevant scripture references.

I appreciate this post, thank you.

"In fact, and you're really not going to like this, he doesn't have to have scripture and verse to do so. Period. End of story."

This was regarding guidelines set for those who wish to be involved in a church ministry or on the platform. This isn't about a doctrine being preached. This is simply about guidelines and preferences for dress, appearance and conduct for those who desire to be used in ministry/platform. These may include things which are not sin and as such do not have chapter and verse, but are the preference of the church leadership. I have served on the church board/Pastoral counsel of two churches, so this may not be indicative of how things are done elsewhere -- in those churches, these guidelines were set by the church board.

Your response at the end included: "Oh . . . I forgot . . . You don't need to quote scripture. Just because . . . I guess anything goes."

That is simply untrue and takes out of context my statement.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Guess you're bored and decided to beat a dead horse, eh Aquila?

No. I'm a man with a beard, looking at Apostolic churches to attend in my area. All teach against beards. I can't find a prohibition against beards in my Bible, so... I'm wondering if it can be classified as a false doctrine.

I've never heard beard preached as a sin. Period. I was born and raised in the UPCI, attending camp meetings, conventions, conferences and revival services in districts around the US. The church I attend now is UPC. Again, I've never heard it preached against as a sin.

I find it interesting that so many who are against beards, or support pastors who have standards against beards, NEVER heard it preached that having a beard is a sin. While it's possible that you have NEVER heard it preached against as a sin to have a beard by pastoral decree... I'm in doubt. I'm sure that you've heard it somewhere after all those years in Pentecost.

Here's the deal, and I know you won't like it, but it is what it is so deal with it: if a Pastor wants to have a dress code for those participating on the platform there is nothing wrong with doing so. In fact, and you're really not going to like this, he doesn't have to have scripture and verse to do so. Period. End of story.

So, Apostolic pastors don't have to preach the Word of God? They can preach their opinions? I believe in standards. But I believe that a standard should be based on Scripture. Modesty is in Scripture. So, various modesty standards are reasonable in my eyes. But nowhere are beards condemned in Scripture. So much for being silent where the Bible is silent, and speaking where the Bible speaks. You just made the case that Apostolic pastors don't have to teach a way of life grounded in Scripture.

It's ridiculous that people will do anything an employer asks of them, dress how the employer demands they dress --- even to the point of shaving their beard if the company's dress code states they must be clean shaven --- and with no complaint!

Ahhhh... there it is. The institutional corporate worldview that equates church with worldly incorporation. The church isn't Walmart. It isn't a corporation. It isn't a business. It's the Kingdom of God. If you don't like an employer's standards, you can freely find another employer. But if all the Apostolic pastors around you teach something that isn't biblical, and you have no desire to listen to their unbiblical mess, where do you go? What do you do? Comparing the church to a secular business is wrong headed. In addition, it reinforces the dangers of institutionalized religion. The institution has the authority to add to the Word of God. It's all wrong. How can we rebuke Catholics for all their stupid and unbiblical teachings, when we champion our own???

But let a Pastor have a dress code for people participating on the platform and the complaints and accusations of false doctrine begin.

Ummm... if it's in the Bible, I have no issues with it. But if it is his opinion, he's preaching his opinion, not Scripture.

"Men who are being forced to shave to join, be a part of, participate, minister, or lead in a church, aren't fully men at all."

That's straight trash. God placed a Pastor to lead the church. If I'm attending that church, I should be willing to be obedient to the man God placed to lead that church.

No. I'm pointing out a doctrine and tradition of men... unless you can provide Bible for it no one is obligated to obey it. If your pastor commanded you to wear a tinfoil hat and a purple polka dot suit, would you do it??? It's not Scriptural. It's an abuse of power. It's everything those who champion Bible over tradition stand against.

You claim men aren't really men if they follow a dress code. Absurd.

I have no issue with dress codes that encourage modesty. Modest is a biblical Christian discipline.

Also, does this apply to secular employment as well? If an employer's dress code says men must be clean shaven, are they less a man for doing so. Gimme a break!

Again, you're seeing the church as a worldly corporate institution ruled by men instead of a spiritual Kingdom bound to the Word of God.

Again, let's review:
A Pastor may require a dress code for those who wish to be involved in ministry on the platform at the church God placed them to lead;

Said dress code is not required to show chapter and verse for each line item

Dress codes emphasizing modesty aren't an issue to me.

If you disagree, then you should find somewhere else to worship.

The end.

Actually, that's kinda why I asked this question. I AM looking for an Apostolic church to attend.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No. I'm a man with a beard, looking at Apostolic churches to attend in my area. All teach against beards. I can't find a prohibition against beards in my Bible, so... I'm wondering if it can be classified as a false doctrine.

Here's something to make you happy: If a minister claims that growing a beard is a sin, that is wrong. It's not scriptural.

The original question you ask is whether it is false doctrine. What is false doctrine? First, define what is doctrine. Doctrine is a set of beliefs or teachings based on the Word of God. So false doctrine would be something which is contrary to the beliefs and teaching of the Word of God.

For example: it is biblical doctrine that a person must be born again. False doctrine would then be claiming that you don't need to be born again.

For there to be a claim of false doctrine, there must be a doctrine to begin with. There is no early church doctrine on beards that I have found. So I would answer that it is not false doctrine, but would agree that any minister who claims beards are a sin would be in error.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I find it interesting that so many who are against beards, or support pastors who have standards against beards, NEVER heard it preached that having a beard is a sin. While it's possible that you have NEVER heard it preached against as a sin to have a beard by pastoral decree... I'm in doubt. I'm sure that you've heard it somewhere after all those years in Pentecost.

Again, the churches I've visited/attended included beards in the dress code for ministry/platform. Most of those churches had men in attendance who wore beards. The Pastor of the UPC church I currently attend includes beards in its dress code for ministry/platform. It's a relatively small church (approx 70 or so) and there are a few men who attend who grow either a full beard or mustache. I asked him about it when I first began attending and was told he doesn't believe it to be a sin, only a preference for those in ministry.

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, Apostolic pastors don't have to preach the Word of God? They can preach their opinions?

You're not understanding what I posted. The context was in regards to a Pastor adopting a dress code for ministry/platform. Don't try to twist this into something else.

Originally Posted by Aquila

You just made the case that Apostolic pastors don't have to teach a way of life grounded in Scripture.

Wrong. You're twisting what I posted and taking it completely out of context.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Ahhhh... there it is. The institutional corporate worldview that equates church with worldly incorporation. The church isn't Walmart. It isn't a corporation. It isn't a business. It's the Kingdom of God. If you don't like an employer's standards, you can freely find another employer. But if all the Apostolic pastors around you teach something that isn't biblical, and you have no desire to listen to their unbiblical mess, where do you go? What do you do? Comparing the church to a secular business is wrong headed. In addition, it reinforces the dangers of institutionalized religion. The institution has the authority to add to the Word of God. It's all wrong. How can we rebuke Catholics for all their stupid and unbiblical teachings, when we champion our own???

First, I'm surprised that you would be interested in attending an institutional church at all, what with your previous posts against them. Second, how a person responds shows the condition of their heart. So when a man will shave without a word for the dress code of a secular business, but whine and throw a tantrum over a dress code for ministry in a local church - it shows a lot.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Ummm... if it's in the Bible, I have no issues with it. But if it is his opinion, he's preaching his opinion, not Scripture.

As stated above, I agree that any minister who claims growing a beard is a sin is wrong. I do not believe it is the same as false doctrine, by simple definition.

Originally Posted by Aquila

No. I'm pointing out a doctrine and tradition of men... unless you can provide Bible for it no one is obligated to obey it. If your pastor commanded you to wear a tinfoil hat and a purple polka dot suit, would you do it??? It's not Scriptural. It's an abuse of power. It's everything those who champion Bible over tradition stand against.

Back to context. This is regarding dress code for men who wish to be involved in the ministry/platform. If the church I attended had a dress code stating I had to wear a tinfoil hat and purple polka dot suit to be used in the ministry/platform, I would find another church in which to minister.

See how easy that is?

Originally Posted by Aquila

I have no issue with dress codes that encourage modesty. Modest is a biblical Christian discipline.

Modesty isn't only about a dress code.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Again, you're seeing the church as a worldly corporate institution ruled by men instead of a spiritual Kingdom bound to the Word of God.

That's untrue.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Actually, that's kinda why I asked this question. I AM looking for an Apostolic church to attend.

Which seems odd to me, considering the previous posts made against institutional churches.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Here's something to make you happy: If a minister claims that growing a beard is a sin, that is wrong. It's not scriptural.

Thank you! lol That's really all I wanted to know.

The original question you ask is whether it is false doctrine. What is false doctrine? First, define what is doctrine. Doctrine is a set of beliefs or teachings based on the Word of God. So false doctrine would be something which is contrary to the beliefs and teaching of the Word of God.

For example: it is biblical doctrine that a person must be born again. False doctrine would then be claiming that you don't need to be born again.

For there to be a claim of false doctrine, there must be a doctrine to begin with. There is no early church doctrine on beards that I have found. So I would answer that it is not false doctrine, but would agree that any minister who claims beards are a sin would be in error.

A doctrine is a teaching. There is biblical doctrine. There are also doctrines of men and doctrines of devils. A teaching stating that a beard is a sin that could cause one to lose their soul is clearly a false teaching, i.e., false doctrine.

Again, the churches I've visited/attended included beards in the dress code for ministry/platform. Most of those churches had men in attendance who wore beards. The Pastor of the UPC church I currently attend includes beards in its dress code for ministry/platform. It's a relatively small church (approx 70 or so) and there are a few men who attend who grow either a full beard or mustache. I asked him about it when I first began attending and was told he doesn't believe it to be a sin, only a preference for those in ministry.

I'm not "against" having a platform policy. Especially with regards to attire. But I do ask myself, why must there be two standards regarding beards? You admitted it yourself, there was never a set teaching about beards in Scripture. Why impose such a teaching at all? Essentially the pastor's platform policy would rule out ever allowing Jesus, Paul, Peter, and perhaps the other Apostles from being able to teach on the platform of your church. If the Word of God doesn't set any kind of precedent for drawing distinction between those who wear beards and those who don't, why would a pastor?

I'm suspecting that it has something to do with the norms and position of the organization. It's politics. If someone walks into the church, the platform better toe the line of the organization, else the pastor could be called on it. It's institutional pressure from men to conform to an outdated model frozen in time. Now, this could be good or bad. But it does show the power of an institution.

Also, as a bearded individual, it makes it sound like at best, your church is embarrassed to have us. As long as we don't wish to be on the platform, we're tolerated. It makes me a bit uncomfortable.

You're not understanding what I posted. The context was in regards to a Pastor adopting a dress code for ministry/platform. Don't try to twist this into something else.

A pastoral "dress code" (regarding attire) is biblical as long as it is grounded in the biblical principle of modesty. I don't believe beards should be included in "dress codes". Because I can't take off my beard and put it immediately back on. It isn't attire. It is a part of my body.

Shouldn't everything a pastor does be based on sound "biblical" principles and not his own wishes or the arbitrary opinions of man?

Wrong. You're twisting what I posted and taking it completely out of context.

Well, it certainly looked like you said that no Scriptural foundation was necessary for a pastor to impose a dress code. I mean, wouldn't that mean a pastor could command tinfoil hats, and you'd believe we have to obey it?

First, I'm surprised that you would be interested in attending an institutional church at all, what with your previous posts against them.

I've had to distance myself from the house church I was attending. They are not Apostolic and though they showed interest in the truth for a time, that time has passed. So, I'm looking around at local churches.

Second, how a person responds shows the condition of their heart. So when a man will shave without a word for the dress code of a secular business, but whine and throw a tantrum over a dress code for ministry in a local church - it shows a lot.

Big difference. A pastor has a sacred trust. His standards, beliefs, and teachings are expected to be grounded in Scripture. Now, I don't expect my chief to abide by Scripture. He's not a Christian, and our department isn't "Christian". It's secular. He can arbitrarily make any standard he chooses. But like I said, he doesn't have a sacred trust. The pastor does. We expect pastors to teach and require things grounded in Scripture, should we not?

As stated above, I agree that any minister who claims growing a beard is a sin is wrong. I do not believe it is the same as false doctrine, by simple definition.

I understand your reasoning. But I see doctrine as teaching. It can come from the Bible, men, tradition, and even devils. A teaching that isn't grounded on Scripture, that imposes a Scriptural punishment (like Hell) is definitely a "false doctrine".

Back to context. This is regarding dress code for men who wish to be involved in the ministry/platform. If the church I attended had a dress code stating I had to wear a tinfoil hat and purple polka dot suit to be used in the ministry/platform, I would find another church in which to minister.

See how easy that is?

It is easy. However, it's also troubling. Few Apostolic churches within my community and the surrounding area would welcome me, and none would allow me to sing in the choir (perhaps this is a positive), all because of my beard.

Modesty isn't only about a dress code.

True. I'm just focusing on modesty because it is a biblical practice with biblical principles.

That's untrue.

What if it is true, and you honestly don't realize it yet?

Which seems odd to me, considering the previous posts made against institutional churches.

I don't like institutional churches. But, I'd like to find someplace to attend.

[jediwill83]

Facial Hair=Pride

Refusing to admit you were wrong to preach a doctrine unsupported by scripture=pride?

Almost sounds like a parent refusing to admit they we're wrong when they seriously overstepped and are afraid that if they admit fallibility the reaction of the child will be to question everything and never obey so they just dig in their heels and double down.

You create this chaotic cognitive dissonance.

It's funny...the Pope was just quoted as saying that,"His word supercedes the Bible" when confronted about differences in scripture and Catholic doctrine...but I guess that's ok if we do that huh?

This isn't even a matter of "twisting" scripture...there is literally no scripture to twist.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

.

Obviously we see the ministry/platform guidelines differently. You appear to see them as doctrine - something taught or preached from the pulpit. That isn't my experience.

I'll share an example of my most recent experience as a member of the pastoral advisory board and worship leader:

(I don't have a copy of the guidelines we created and may have forgotten some points...)

This experience is from a church which was not UPC, but was Apostolic, just not affiliated with any organization. The Pastor of this church had previously been licensed - first with the Apostolic Assembly, and, just prior to starting this church, the UPCI. His experience with both organizations led him to decide he didn't want to be affiliated with either.

When the church first began, we had musicians in ripped jeans and even a drummer who came one Sunday in Bermuda shorts and flip flops. It was after this we decided to institute guidelines/expectations for those involved in ministry/platform.

So now Jim Billybob Johnson wants to play the guitar. As someone who will be representing the church, we created set of guidelines which included dress, appearance and conduct.

The first part was primarily background information about salvation, previous church involvement, etc.

The second part included guidelines about dress and appearance. Like it or not, we didn't want Jim Billybob Johnson to show up with ripped jeans or shorts and flip flops.

Could we point to a chapter and verse? No. Is it a sin to wear flip flops? I hope not! Though I've worn them less as I've grown older. Nor is it a sin to wear shorts, IMO.

The guidelines also said Jim Billybob was to keep his hair short and not bleached, or in some wild style (mohawk, faux-hawk, etc.).

Again, can't really point to a chapter or verse other than "it's a shame for a man to have long hair." Nothing specific about styling the hair or dying it.

It also stated JB Johnson was to be either clean shaven or keep his beard/mustache trimmed and neat.

It stated he was to wear business casual clothing, a suit and tie was not required for the musicians. Men were required to wear dress slacks with a collared shirt - either a dress polo or buttoned shirt. Women were required to wear a dress/skirt of appropriate length, not to be above the knee when seated, including a slit. The women's blouse/shirt should have a modest neckline and sleeve length.

No chapter and verse.

JB Johnson was not allowed to wear jewelry, such as a necklace or bracelet or ring other than a wedding ring.

No chapter and verse.

Besides the dress and appearance, the third part included guidelines of conduct.

Obviously, we expected Jim Billybob Johnson to conduct himself as a Christian should. We expected Jim Billybob Johnson to have daily prayer and devotion. In fact, as a worship team we all had a Bible devotion/reading plan we followed together. The guideline also set an expectation that JB Johnson would choose one day a week to fast and set aside extra time in the day to pray.

No chapter and verse.

Again, I may have missed some details, but this is what I can remember off the top of my head.

This was to be signed by Jim Billybob Johnson and both myself and the Pastor would approve it. We asked that JB Johnson and anyone else in ministry commit to a period of at least six months, after which they would sign a new guideline/commitment form.

[Michael The Disciple]

But one main reason I was not humiliated over a beard much was that I did not last long in mainstream Apostolic Churches. As a brand new Jesus Only believer having come up in The Jesus Movement and the Charismatic movement I joined an Apostolic Church in 1982 in Springfield Ohio.

The Pastor explained to me the standards of the Church. No one with a beard could be a member yet he said "Brother Gibson no one is going to Hell over a beard". I shaved then my first meeting there he announced I would be teaching the midweek meeting. Soon afterwards I was appointed an Elder.

As time went on I noticed the visiting Preachers usually hammered on the standards and made comments like "theres a bunch of devils running around out there preaching there is Bible for beards"! To me that was pitiful and shameful. The Pastors brother in law showed up one night with a beard and a visiting preacher made sport of him until he got up and fled the Church.

Well after a year of such things the Pastor got up and preached a message on perfection. It was a direct refutation of the doctrine I had been teaching. We were told Bible perfection was for men to shave, take off watches and rings and wear long sleeves. For women to never cut their hair again and never wear pants, make up or jewelry.

That was Biblical perfection.

It was my last time there.

Since then I have been part of Apostolic groups but never mainstream ones.

I met with the E

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

But one main reason I was not humiliated over a beard much was that I did not last long in mainstream Apostolic Churches. As a brand new Jesus Only believer having come up in The Jesus Movement and the Charismatic movement I joined an Apostolic Church in 1982 in Springfield Ohio.

The Pastor explained to me the standards of the Church. No one with a beard could be a member yet he said "Brother Gibson no one is going to Hell over a beard". I shaved then my first meeting there he announced I would be teaching the midweek meeting. Soon afterwards I was appointed an Elder.

As time went on I noticed the visiting Preachers usually hammered on the standards and made comments like "theres a bunch of devils running around out there preaching there is Bible for beards"! To me that was pitiful and shameful. The Pastors brother in law showed up one night with a beard and a visiting preacher made sport of him until he got up and fled the Church.

Well after a year of such things the Pastor got up and preached a message on perfection. It was a direct refutation of the doctrine I had been teaching. We were told Bible perfection was for men to shave, take off watches and rings and wear long sleeves. For women to never cut their hair again and never wear pants, make up or jewelry.

That was Biblical perfection.

It was my last time there.

Since then I have been part of Apostolic groups but never mainstream ones.

I met with the E

Nobody here against beards ever heard them preached as sin.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Nobody here against beards ever heard them preached as sin.

Thats a riot aint it!

Just think. Men with no sin in their life are not respectable enuff to step on the HOLY PLATFORM!

The Heavenly Father, The Lord Jesus Christ would not be permitted to address the most holy saints in an Apostolic Church!

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Thats a riot aint it!

Just think. Men with no sin in their life are not respectable enuff to step on the HOLY PLATFORM!

The Heavenly Father, The Lord Jesus Christ would not be permitted to address the most holy saints in an Apostolic Church!

Now that is a profound thought.