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  #1451  
Old 02-22-2014, 04:47 PM
RJR RJR is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
I've always gotten the impression that a Preacher was not someone that stood in front of their small congregation, read a verse or two and then yelled.

A Preacher was someone that was proclaiming the gospel to unbelievers not to the "choir"
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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Preaching is as much about someone proclaiming something to those who are unbelievers as it is to those who already believe. What is being proclaimed though is not the same
Keep talking out of both sides of your mouth and you will be able to defend both sides of the discussion.

Last edited by RJR; 02-22-2014 at 04:59 PM.
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  #1452  
Old 02-22-2014, 04:52 PM
RJR RJR is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

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Originally Posted by Sasha View Post
For one thing, most of your verses are repeated in other areas above. For another, in most cases, the use of the word is in the form of a noun. "Witnessing" is a verb.
It is one Greek word that is used in all the English terms used above. Praxeas said "witnesseth" was not in her Bible. First of all it is in the English Bible, and the Greek word is used in many other English terms beyond witnesseth. ONE GREEK WORD TRANSLATED INTO MANY ENGLISH WORDS!

Last edited by RJR; 02-22-2014 at 05:02 PM.
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  #1453  
Old 02-22-2014, 05:02 PM
Pliny Pliny is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

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Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
2 Timothy 3:2, 12 and Titus 1:6, both of which teach that elders, deacons and other church leaders are to be "the husband of one wife". As we discussed earlier, all Scripture must be interpreted in light of Scripture as a whole. With this in mind, if these verses were intended to be an absolute command that only married men are permitted to be church leaders, then Paul himself would be disqualified, as he was unmarried (2 Corinthians 9:5). If the title of "deacon" was solely reserved for men, how do we explain a lady named Phoebe, who is called a "servant of God" since the Greek word translated "servant" is diakonos, which is where we get the word "deacon?"
This is yet another example of why women should not attempt to teach or be allowed to be elders. Doctrines are based upon the figment of imagination, not exegesis.

It has been shown before that the word simply means servant such as in Jn 2:5.
(Joh 2:5 KJV) His mother saith unto the servants (diakonos), Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
To use the logic of S. Alvear these people were church leaders before there was ever a church. After all they are called “diakonos”.

She speaks out of both sides of her mouth when she says we must look at the whole of scripture then she turns around and ignores the historical word definition as well as the context. Diakonos were servant’s period. The church later adopted this word as a position within the church.

In the beginning the Apostles said they should not leave the word of God to serve (diakoneō) tables (Acts 6:2). This makes a very clear distinction between “serving” and “preaching”. The Apostles, correctly, knew they had to remain focused upon their calling or they would not be able to do what they needed to do. They needed fellow laborers that could do these needful things.
In Christianity women have a very important role and should seek to be used of God. There are many things they can and have done. They ministered (diakoneō) to Jesus - Luke 8:3 for example. Based upon the definition foisted upon us we must assume these women taught Jesus Himself. Tabitha in Acts 9 was full of good works towards the household of faith and the list could go on. Women do have an important role to fill. However, every time there is a qualification for church leadership in scripture there is always a qualification that implies male leadership period. This is also the context of the whole of scripture that is ignored by the imagination of S. Alvear.

S. Alvear confuses what became an office with a word definition. Servants (diakonos) were around long before the church. It means just what it says, a servant. The church, in time, took the word and created an office from the word; therefore, one must first recognize the historical meaning of the word and how the church adopted that word for its internal use. To make assumptions is to ignore the historical meaning of the word. This is what has happened here. No doubt Phebe, like Tabitha, served the church like so many others.

To make an assumption that Phebe was a church leader over men one would have to prove first of all that it was possible. This cannot be done in any way shape or form. As mentioned above every time there is a qualification for a church leader it always, without exception, implies a man. Therefore we must conclude that Phebe, like Tabitha, was a great woman that served the church well. The only other possibility is that Phebe was a leader of women as taught here:
(Tit 2:3 KJV) The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
(Tit 2:4 KJV) That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
(Tit 2:5 KJV) To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
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  #1454  
Old 02-22-2014, 05:04 PM
RJR RJR is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

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Originally Posted by RJR View Post
Sis Alvear, I have witnessed it is your style to make statements about a passage and when someone ask you a question or offers a rebuttal to your claims, you either completely ignore the question or rebuttal and come back with another post intended to elicit sympathy or change subjects.

I would like to ask you a question about 1 Tim 2. Is it speaking only of a husband and wife relationship and the home?
Calling Sister Alvear.
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  #1455  
Old 02-22-2014, 05:04 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

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Originally Posted by RJR View Post
It is one Greek word that is used in all the English terms used above. Praxeas said "witnesseth" was not in her Bible. First of all it is in the English Bible, and it is a term from the Greek that is used in many other English terms beyond witnesseth.
First of all I said Witnessing. Second I am a man. Third of all we were discussing the idea of getting the Lost saved. Yes preaching the gospel saving message to the Lost is what you call "Witnesseth"..

Lastly "Witnesseth" is not in my KJV either

marturéō; contracted marturṓ, fut. marturḗsō, from mártus (G3144), witness. To be a witness, bear witness.
(I) To be a witness, to be able or ready to testify. With the dat. (Joh_3:28; Act_22:5); used in an absolute sense (2Co_8:3); followed by the dat. of person or thing, meaning in favor of whom or what one bears testimony (Joh_3:26; Joh_5:33; Joh_18:37).
(II) To bear witness, to testify to the truth of what one has seen, heard, or knows.

So back to my point. We can ALL preach the gospel to the Lost. You can call it "Witnesseth" all you want but it does not change anything.

That's like people who changed "Wedding Rings" to "Wedding bands" so they can wear jewelry or people who called their TVs "Monitors" to avoid the obvious.

It does not change anything.

They preached the gospel to the Lost.
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #1456  
Old 02-22-2014, 05:05 PM
Pliny Pliny is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

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Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
If Paul had meant 1 Timothy 2 to apply to women (or females) in general, there was clearly a way in Greek to have done so. But the fact that he deliberately chose words that primarily translate in the New Testament as “husband” and “wife” seems to indicate a restricted meaning and application in these passages.

Paul knew the greek language....just like I know Portuguese ...he knew who he was talking to...
Context determines definition.
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  #1457  
Old 02-22-2014, 05:06 PM
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navygoat1998 navygoat1998 is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

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Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (Romans 14:4)

Scripture is its own interpreter. Nothing can cut a diamond but a diamond. Nothing can interpret Scripture but Scripture" Thomas Watson.
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  #1458  
Old 02-22-2014, 05:08 PM
Pliny Pliny is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
It works for the rest of us. I do it all the time. All you need to do hit Quote then when the editor window opens select the first section you want and hit THIS button
Quote:
It will add an extra open quote tag so remove it.
Then the next blocks all you need to do is select/highlight and then hit again the quote box button you see in the EDITOR WINDOW

Near the end you will have to remove the extra CLOSE quote tag
I will try it again some time. Either way it's not that hard to do.

I think I see what you are saying...

I had another method in mind.

Last edited by Pliny; 02-22-2014 at 05:11 PM.
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  #1459  
Old 02-22-2014, 05:09 PM
RJR RJR is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Being written TO the Saints does not prevent Paul from mentioning HOW they are saved.

Also Roman's may not have been entirely to those already saved but those who are not.

Rom 1:14 I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.
Rom 1:15 So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

In fact a lot of what Paul says seems directed at UNBELIEVERS and not just believers. Paul's letters were read in meetings and often unbelievers came into their midst.
Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Last edited by RJR; 02-22-2014 at 05:13 PM.
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  #1460  
Old 02-22-2014, 05:09 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

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Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
This is yet another example of why women should not attempt to teach or be allowed to be elders. Doctrines are based upon the figment of imagination, not exegesis.

.
Wow...hey I have a question. Can black men preach or are they also genetically incapable as you just claimed women are?

You realize that Paul was not saying women are incapable of teaching. In fact Paul commands the women then to TEACH other women. How can they do that if they are incapable of anything other than figments of their imagination?

You realize, I hope, such arguments with all the innuendos and insults only impress the others that are in the same corner as your respective parties (For and Against) that are involved in this? You won't convince anyone else you are right that way. In fact you will probably push them even further away.

That goes for both sides
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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