We have to Be perfect in order to make heaven

[Pendragon]

Luke, let's get down to where the rubber meets the road. Lets see how your doctrine stacks up against real life. What is your answer to overcoming pornography?

I venture to guess it is
1) pray more
2) fast
3) read the Word
4) install some blocking software
5) accountability partners

And when a brother tries all these things and still continues to fall, what do you say then? 'Behold, this one is weak and does not truly love God'. 'I bet if I walked in the room while he was looking at it he'd find a way to stop himself then!' 'How bad do you want to be free?' Etc., etc., etc.

So we are left with a conundrum: either the brother 'doesn't want to be free bad enough' or else God just isn't able to deliver.

Either way you turn with your doctrine of works-based salvation, God doesn't get any glory. If the brother does get free from pornography, it is because he exerted phenomenal willpower and broke himself out of the trap. Reading the bible, fasting, praying, software, and accountability partners all rely on human ability and strength. Oh sure, the brother can say God used these methods to get him free, but lets be honest - how is this any different than performing catechisms and praying the rosary? Why do we even pray for freedom from addiction if we still have to go through a 12 Step program?

Ephesians 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

The problem with your doctrine is you don't have any room for the empowering grace of God, and certainly no room for giving God the glory. 'Grace' is just a part of the New Testament that is given lip service but has no place in your everyday life of legalistic, willpowered routines.

The only way a brother can be free from pornography is by getting to the root of the problem, which is a disconnect in our relationship with Christ. By believing our relationship with our savior hinges on whether or not we perform certain tasks and routines, we unknowingly introduce a wall between ourselves and Christ. We've resurrected the law, and there is no way past it, as many backsliders can attest. It condemns us every day we live in its shadow, and each day a spotlight shines from the top of that wall and illuminates every failure in our lives.

The only way to have a real relationship with Jesus is to start with the basics. Go back to page 10 and read what Aquila wrote - I can't do it any better than that.

Once you start there, I can attest from personal experience that past stumbling blocks and sins will fall by the wayside. You will TRULY take on the mind of Christ, and those old sins won't hold any attraction for you. I've heard that described before in my old legalistic church, but I never experienced it until I began to understand these things I'm telling you about. I won't pretend that I don't occasionally find myself slipping from time to time, but they are mere stumbles in a life that I can feel drawing ever closer to God. I know what I tell you here is right because the life I live today mirrors far more closely the teachings of Paul, than what I had before.

Luke, I'm not telling you that you have to give up your works. What I'm telling you is that you've got the cart before the horse at this point in your life. You believe your works are what draw you closer to Christ. That cannot be farther from the truth. But once you start with the basics you will see that the works, and the fruit of the spirit, will follow close behind. You will want to study God's word. You will relish your time in prayer. Old habits and sins that you once struggled so vigorously to defeat will fall by the wayside, like a child abandoning an old toy. When you live like this, there is no one else who can receive glory for your deliverance, than the Maker of Heaven and Earth.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

oh it's about rewards.. not eternal salvation... God is only looooove to his kids.

So the fornicating, deceived, backslidden servants of Jesus would enter the Kingdom. They just would get a smaller reward?

Thats the message of today!

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So the fornicating, deceived, backslidden servants of Jesus would enter the Kingdom. They just would get a smaller reward?

Thats the message of today!

seems that is the flavor of doctrine anymore.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is how we can know if we are like Jesus and if we really know him.

2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:2-6

Everyone single person who is IN CHRIST should be walking EVEN AS HE WALKED. Anyone who does not keep his commandments is a liar and there is no truth in him. Amen? If we do keep his commands he says he knows us.

I love it. Every legalist will offer their little list. Another legalists list will include Sabbath keeping or dietary laws. LOL

That’s the problem with works based salvation and assurance. Everyone has a different list. Salvation is ambiguous at best (and they admit this). The Sabbath keeping Apostolic will lay out a biblical reason why the non-Sabbath keeping Apostolic is in direct violation of God’s Law and is a sinner before Christ, a rebel, one who will not submit, and they will explain why that non-Sabbath keeper will be judged and condemned before God. However, we who trust in Christ alone have no fear, no condemnation, and full assurance. The Sabbath keeping legalist will ask if I keep the Sabbath, and the answer is, in Christ, YES! Jesus is my Sabbath. Any Law required by God was fulfilled by Christ on my behalf, so that I might be the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. I am hidden with Christ, as though I were hidden in a safe. I have a salvation secured by Jesus Christ alone.

Now, does that mean I should sin that grace might abound? NO! God forbid. Why? Jesus lives inside of me. I am His temple. And if I am His and partaking in His nature… I can’t continue in sin, it’s not my nature to do so. I’m a human being…that means I’m not a fish. I might be able to choose to hold my breath and swim under water…but eventually I will have to come up for air. By virtue of the new birth, I was spiritually born a new creature, a saint, justified, sanctified, sealed, delivered, atoned, clean, and holy by virtue of His nature within me. Therefore, while I might be able to choose to hold my breath and swim into the cesspool of sin, eventually I will have to come back up for air. Why? Because I am abiding in Christ Jesus.

I John 3:6-10
{3:6} Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen
him, neither known him. {3:7} Little children, let no man
deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even
as he is righteous. {3:8} He that committeth sin is of the
devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this
purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might
destroy the works of the devil. {3:9} Whosoever is born of
God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and
he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {3:10} In this the
children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:

I like the New Living Translation’s interpretation of the above text:

1 John 3:6-10 (New Living Translation)
6 Anyone who continues to live in him will not sin. But anyone who keeps on sinning does not know him or understand who he is.
7 Dear children, don’t let anyone deceive you about this: When people do what is right, it shows that they are righteous, even as Christ is righteous. 8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them. So they can’t keep on sinning, because they are children of God. 10 So now we can tell who are children of God and who are children of the devil. Anyone who does not live righteously and does not love other believers does not belong to God.

Goes back into the whole, they went out from among us because they were not of us. Those who are of God and are in Christ, cannot sin. It's against their new nature. It's not about will power or choice. I can't will myself to fly...only a bird can. Why? I was born a human being. A saint of God is born again, a new creature in Jesus Christ, they cannot sin (meaning continual or habitual sin).

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So the fornicating, deceived, backslidden servants of Jesus would enter the Kingdom. They just would get a smaller reward?

Thats the message of today!

Continual fornication? No. A child of Satan.
Deceived? No. A child of lies.
Backslidden? No. Never was one of us.

Secondary question... what does determine a Saint's reward in eternity???

[Charnock]

So...you do your very best to live up to all of God's commands? You obey every Levitical law, every command of Jesus, and you're generous and giving to a fault?

You dress right? You don't smoke, drink or cuss? You go to church? Tithe?

You exhaust yourself being good, and strive to attain perfection, all with the belief that your effort will please God and enhance your chances of securing eternal life?

But you must know that you still fall short. That your attitude reeks, at times. That you haven't mastered the wickedness of your heart and mind even though you seem to have all of the externals under control.

And when you are confronted with that reality you will say "i'll leave that on the hands of a just and merciful God."

In other words, God is your last hope - after you've exhausted yourself.

That is a sad and miserable way to live. Especially when you are unsure if His grace, mercy and love will be enough in your hour of need.

I believe God is more than my last hope. He is my only hope.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Continual fornication? No. A child of Satan.
Deceived? No. A child of lies.
Backslidden? No. Never was one of us.

Secondary question... what does determine a Saint's reward in eternity???

so OSAS or ES.

[NotforSale]

Aquila's point on the Sabbath is perfect. To Be, or Not to Be? Some say it's necessary, some don't. The Ten Commandments are clear about it! It's God's LAW!

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Come on Folks, let's address this simple example! Yes or No?????? Will a person be lost if they break this Law?? This is supposed to be a perpetual (everlasting) covenant. How in the world does Jesus take the place of a man working 7 days a week????

You can scream all day long that Jesus is your Rest, but many in Christianity disagree!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Charnock

So...you do your very best to live up to all of God's commands? You obey every Levitical law, every command of Jesus, and you're generous and giving to a fault?

You dress right? You don't smoke, drink or cuss? You go to church? Tithe?

You exhaust yourself being good, and strive to attain perfection, all with the belief that your effort will please God and enhance your chances of securing eternal life?

But you must know that you still fall short. That your attitude reeks, at times. That you haven't mastered the wickedness of your heart and mind even though you seem to have all of the externals under control.

And when you are confronted with that reality you will say "i'll leave that on the hands of a just and merciful God."

In other words, God is your last hope - after you've exhausted yourself.

That is a sad and miserable way to live. Especially when you are unsure if His grace, mercy and love will be enough in your hour of need.

I believe God is more than my last hope. He is my only hope.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Aquila's point on the Sabbath is perfect. To Be, or Not to Be? Some say it's necessary, some don't. The Ten Commandments are clear about it! It's God's LAW!

Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Come on Folks, let's address this simple example! Yes or No?????? Will a person be lost if they break this Law?? This is supposed to be a perpetual (everlasting) covenant. How in the world does Jesus take the place of a man working 7 days a week????

You can scream all day long that Jesus is your Rest, but many in Christianity disagree!

Notice, they say that Jesus is their rest. Hence, they acknowledge the principle of grace when confronted with laws... they don't obey. ;-)