Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe abortion is a grevious sin. However, is the GOVERNEMNT really capable of properly policing and regulating it? I mean... if my wife were on the table facing a situation that might call for terminating the pregnancy we'd have to have a group of doctors agree that it's the safest option and then it would have to be approved by a public official or judge (God forbid it's an election year) who might sacrifice my wife on the altar of political points.

I HATE abortion. But... I'm not sure that I believe GOVERNMENT has the answer. I believe we need to address the issues that pregnant women face like poverty, health care, daycare, education, and abuse. I believe that ddressing these issues would have a deeper impact on abortion rates than merely banning the procedure. Let's face it, over 30 years since Roe and guess what.... we're nowhere. Let's address those issues that women with unplanned pregnancies face at attack abortion at the root... by relieving their fears and coming along side to help them. The Democrats for Life of America proposed the 95/10 initiative that was intended to target many of these issues. Their hope was to reduce the abortion rate in the United States through Federal and State level initiatives that targetted the concerns of women considering abortion. The initiative included the following proposals:

-establish a toll-free number to direct women to places that will provide support;
- collect accurate data on why women choose abortion;
- provide Pregnancy Counseling and Childcare on University Campuses;
-provide accurate information to patients receiving a positive result from prenatal testing;
-provide counseling in maternity group homes;
-increase the adoption tax credit and it permanent
-eliminate pregnancy as a pre-existing condition with respect to health care;
- provide grants for ultrasound equipment;
- support informed consent for Abortion Services;
- increase awareness about violence against pregnant women;
-require the SCHIP to cover pregnant women and unborn children;
- provide free home visits by registered nurses for new mothers

The initiative was largely opposed by the Republicans who felt that policies aimed specifically at reducing the abortion rate and saving the unborn were too expensive. They'd rather see us picketting for another 30 years before addressing the actual social issues that leave so many women with unplanned pregnancies terrified and considering abortion.

But then again... that's government.

Great point but let's forget tax dollars for a minute and talk about our own dollars. While many pontificate, how many have taken in a woman who has been abandoned by family over an unplanned pregnancy? Given serious money to a shelter that does the same? Not talking peanuts here... or your used baby clothes... If we are trying to stop the murder or innocents let's do something big like forgo vacation this year and give two weeks pay to a shelter, or defer a mortgage or car payment and send that in. Maybe adopt an unwanted child... not a newborn white infant (although some wouldn't even do that) but a mixed race or minority older child whose mother did not terminate her pregnancy but couldn't raise him/her either. Got a spare bedroom in your home you can adopt a sibling group.

I get tired of hearing all the talk from those who have never been five minutes out of their comfort zone to actually DO something.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Great point but let's forget tax dollars for a minute and talk about our own dollars. While many pontificate, how many have taken in a woman who has been abandoned by family over an unplanned pregnancy? Given serious money to a shelter that does the same? Not talking peanuts here... or your used baby clothes... If we are trying to stop the murder or innocents let's do something big like forgo vacation this year and give two weeks pay to a shelter, or defer a mortgage or car payment and send that in. Maybe adopt an unwanted child... not a newborn white infant (although some wouldn't even do that) but a mixed race or minority older child whose mother did not terminate her pregnancy but couldn't raise him/her either. Got a spare bedroom in your home you can adopt a sibling group.

I get tired of hearing all the talk from those who have never been five minutes out of their comfort zone to actually DO something.

Ouch! You're hitting us all where we live T2W. Excellent points. God help us.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Heard of it many times, and have a couple friends who did name the child and have a service for the child after miscarriage.

Our society DOES equate abortion with murder - with one small caveat... it has to be a "wanted" child.

There is a difference in that the unborn child has built fewer relationships at that point in there life. This is true for the born as well. As a baby grows so does his circle of friends and influence.

I think you and Titus2woman ignored the main point. The point was that Christians have traditionally not treated unborns/stillborns as people in the few ways they can treat them as people. They don't name them and they don't bury them. Sure that's starting to change but it isn't there yet.

I can only think that if Christians had done their part and acted like unborns were people for the last 2000 years then abortion wouldn't even be a debate right now. So what I'm saying is stop pointing the finger at those who have abortions and saying "murderer" when you and your religion have not acted like unborns deserve the same ceremonies as born people. You're religion has kept and maintained that divide between born and unborn people and so it's no surprise when the world follows your example and principle. If you treat unborns differently than those that are born then don't condemn others for doing the same thing!

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think you and Titus2woman ignored the main point. The point was that Christians have traditionally not treated unborns/stillborns as people in the few ways they can treat them as people. They don't name them and they don't bury them. Sure that's starting to change but it isn't there yet.

I can only think that if Christians had done their part and acted like unborns were people for the last 2000 years then abortion wouldn't even be a debate right now. So what I'm saying is stop pointing the finger at those who have abortions and saying "murderer" when you and your religion have not acted like unborns deserve the same ceremonies as born people. You're religion has kept and maintained that divide between born and unborn people and so it's no surprise when the world follows your example and principle. If you treat unborns differently than those that are born then don't condemn others for doing the same thing!

I receive your point but accept no responsibility for the sins of my forefathers or the church at large. Also, I think it's a flimsy argument. "treating" someone differently is much different than killing them off.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I receive your point but accept no responsibility for the sins of my forefathers or the church at large. Also, I think it's a flimsy argument. "treating" someone differently is much different than killing them off.

How many unborns have you named? How many unborns have you suggested be buried? How many unborn funerals have you attended? I'm willing to wager that your actions show that you don't treat unborns as people except when it comes to the abortion issue.

Also the argument isn't merely that "unborns are being treated differently" its that you and the church at large and most all of society have never treated unborns as people and that's where the idea that abortion is permissible stems from, unborns are not being treated like people by anyone. (Though that is starting to change.)

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think you and Titus2woman ignored the main point. The point was that Christians have traditionally not treated unborns/stillborns as people in the few ways they can treat them as people. They don't name them and they don't bury them. Sure that's starting to change but it isn't there yet.

I can only think that if Christians had done their part and acted like unborns were people for the last 2000 years then abortion wouldn't even be a debate right now. So what I'm saying is stop pointing the finger at those who have abortions and saying "murderer" when you and your religion have not acted like unborns deserve the same ceremonies as born people. You're religion has kept and maintained that divide between born and unborn people and so it's no surprise when the world follows your example and principle. If you treat unborns differently than those that are born then don't condemn others for doing the same thing!

I can't speak beyond my own 39 years of living, and the little corner of the world I've lived in. But growing up in the mountains, every still born we have ever known of, or unborn (assuming you mean miscarriages, or where the baby inside died because mom died or was killed), have always been named and been either a part of mom's funeral, or had one of their own. I can take you to countless cemetaries in the mountains of East TN where there are tons of graves where families we know have buried a still born baby, with names on them.... And can take you to quite a few for miscarried fetus'. So, no, I can't speak to 2000 years, but I can say that the broad brush your using doesn't paint over everyone.

[Aquila]

Being named isn't a criteria for being a human being.

[Hoovie]

To expound the point that jfrog raises a bit... I do believe we can ascertain how welcome people are by how we treat them. Often today babies and children are seen more as a bother or an oddity and that speaks to how welcome they are in the world. In part I believe Christians themselves have propagated this view. Therefore we are below the replacement fertility rate in the US.

Also, having traveled to many countries with a small children, it was apparent that children were much more welcome in some countries than others. In particular, French people did not make much accommodation for a child. It was rare that they made any connection or paused to coo over a child. We immediately noticed this was true across the board and not just because we were "Americans". It may explain a declining French population if it were not for Muslim immigrants factored in...

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by jfrog

How many unborns have you named? How many unborns have you suggested be buried? How many unborn funerals have you attended? I'm willing to wager that your actions show that you don't treat unborns as people except when it comes to the abortion issue.

Also the argument isn't merely that "unborns are being treated differently" its that you and the church at large and most all of society have never treated unborns as people and that's where the idea that abortion is permissible stems from, unborns are not being treated like people by anyone. (Though that is starting to change.)

I won't quibble, but most of my unborn children were named.

Abortion is a societal ill, so in that regard we all share in it. I think rather than laying blame squarely on the church in this matter, you can find it is the church that is at the forefront in aiding those effected by unplanned pregnancies, and yes, even treating the unborn as real children.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

I can't speak beyond my own 39 years of living, and the little corner of the world I've lived in. But growing up in the mountains, every still born we have ever known of, or unborn (assuming you mean miscarriages, or where the baby inside died because mom died or was killed), have always been named and been either a part of mom's funeral, or had one of their own. I can take you to countless cemetaries in the mountains of East TN where there are tons of graves where families we know have buried a still born baby, with names on them.... And can take you to quite a few for miscarried fetus'. So, no, I can't speak to 2000 years, but I can say that the broad brush your using doesn't paint over everyone.

I was born in Northeast Tn (further east than knoxville) and maybe I'm out of the loop but I've never heard of a miscarried baby being buried.