Sinful housework

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

All I can say to that is WOW!

Those seemed like fair questions to me? Do you see some reason they aren't? I might even call them central. Admittedly challenging to our current views...but amen to that, too, imo.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Those seemed like fair questions to me? Do you see some reason they aren't? I might even call them central. Admittedly challenging to our current views...but amen to that, too, imo.

Yes they were. My reaction was that I thought it was a powerful point.

[shazeep]

ah, well, ty; if you get any wisdom here, i am open

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Agreed and of course turning from the sin.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes they were. My reaction was that I thought it was a powerful point.

Care to elaborate?

[shazeep]

If i may, the point was made in ref to "Can you sin in Heaven?" which answer would seem to be an obvious 'no;' (which then begs the Q, "No free will in Heaven?") and MtDs defense was that no one would be inclined to do this, being glorified (which i pretty much agree with); but i spent a couple of years on this, and the response to that was "What about A&E? What about satan?" Both sinned in a perfect world.

I'm not being entirely fair, here, as i carried this further, a couple of years ago--with a lot of help--but I'm interested to see if we reach the same conclusions here, which i'll tell you now were not very satisfactory; i blame religion getting in the way of interpreting Scripture for that one.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by shazeep

If i may, the point was made in ref to "Can you sin in Heaven?" which answer would seem to be an obvious 'no;' (which then begs the Q, "No free will in Heaven?") and MtDs defense was that no one would be inclined to do this, being glorified (which i pretty much agree with); but i spent a couple of years on this, and the response to that was "What about A&E? What about satan?" Both sinned in a perfect world.

I'm not being entirely fair, here, as i carried this further, a couple of years ago--with a lot of help--but I'm interested to see if we reach the same conclusions here, which i'll tell you now were not very satisfactory; i blame religion getting in the way of interpreting Scripture for that one.

Remember, although Satan... and Adam & Eve sinned in a perfect world... they were not glorified. When one is glorified they have not only partaken in the divine nature... they have been consumed by it. One is essentially one with God in all the fullness a being can be one with God without loosing their distinct identity.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by renee819

Luke, How did you know that you were made holy in an instant?

In Hebrews the Bible tells us that when one is sanctified and made perfect by God that we recieve the witness of sanctification by the Holy Ghost:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

Originally Posted by renee819

To my question as to where in the Bible you find a 'second work of grace?"

Luke, is that the only scripture that those that teach, “the second work of grace” have to go on?
Paul is coming to them, the second time. And Paul can not give them “the second work of grace.”
He is talking to Christians, so they already have the Holy Ghost. What benefit can he give them? He can only pray for them to receive a 'gift of the spirit.”
as he says in this scripture,...


And now to the scripture that you gave.

.

Second----English Words used in KJV:
second 34
the second time + <G1537> 4
the second time 4
again + <G1537> 2
again 1
secondarily 1
afterward 1
[Total Count: 47]
..
as the comparative of <G1417> (duo); (ordinal) second (in time, place or rank; also adverbial) :- afterward, again, second (-arily, time).

Benefit-----from <G5463> (chairo); graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude) :- acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

gift----from <G5483> (chazorimai); a (divine) gratuity, i.e. deliverance (from danger or passion); (special) a (spiritual) endowment, i.e. (subject) religious qualification, or (objective) miraculous faculty :- (free) gift.
..
I believe that Paul is saying here, that he wanted to come to them the second time, to give them some benefit, which according to other scriptures, would mean that he would pray for them to receive one of the spiritual gifts. As he told Timothy,...




Again he reminds Timothy,...



This is the only 'benefit” that Paul can give them. When he comes the second time, he can not give them any 'second work of grace.”

You misunderstood my point in that scripture I mentioned. My respones as to why the terminology of SECOND WORK of GRACE was as follows:

The term comes from the fact that like salvation is a work of grace wrought in the life of a sinner making him/her a christian so also sanctification is a work of grace subsequent to salvation in the heart of a christian to make him/her holy. As it is subsequent to salvation the first work of grace it of necessity is the second work of grace.

As to it in the Bible being called specificly a second grace many will point to:

2 Corinthians 1:15 And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;

Because the word translated benefit has it first and primary meaning as Grace

As you can see i first explained the of the terminolgoy then gave a quick reference that many cite for calling it a second grace.

There are multiple passages that demonstrate that there are some christians that having been Sanctified are refered to as either perfect, saints or are said to have a pure heart. At the same time in many other scriptures (many times in the same scripture) there are others refered to as believers or brethren and a distinction is shown. There are multiple scriptures in the N.T. that call christians to holiness and command holiness of christians as if in both instances weather it be a call or a command though addressed to christians it shows that they are not holy. Further there are scriptures which specificly say that we are sanctified by faith in Jesus name through the blood He shed on the cross and that it is accomplished by a work of God and should be retained till the Day that Jesus returns.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

The scripture says "mortify the DEEDS of the body".... indicating that there is more than one event, the word "deeds" is plural... meaning that it is not a one-time event to take it all out, but an event that can occur multiple times.

I do believe we can win battles... but we haven't yet won the war against our carnal nature. .

When I am preparing my garden plot for the next spring planting there will usually be weeds that need to be killed so i get out my round up and spray multiple weeds at the same time thus destroying and killing the weeds (plural) all at the same time.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Here is a pictorial illustration for my point. A country goes to war against another country, and captives are taken. These captives are now subject to the will of the captors. However, while they are captive, they are not submitted, and completely won over to their captors. They obey most of the time, but are constantly looking for a way of escape. They may be obedient, but not submissive. At any given moment, they are looking for a way to rebel, to uprise, and to escape their captivity.

Looking at this allegory, and putting our flesh and spirit into the equation.... Once the Spirit of Christ comes into our heart, the flesh is no longer reigning. It is in remission, or in obedience to the spirit. But that same flesh is not submitted. It is constantly looking for areas and ways to rise up, rebel, and expose itself, to regain its freedom. .

The flesh cannot be in subjection to God:

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Subjection of the flesh is not what is promised but rather destruction and liberty is both offered and promised in this life:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord


Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

That is why Paul says we must "mortify the deeds of the body", we must constantly be on guard against its attack, even though yes, the spirit is reigning. The flesh is captive, and subdued, but it is not destroyed. The flesh has not yet been put to death, which is an event that will take place upon the time we die, or attain our glorified bodies.

Where is this specificly taught in the Bible? Also why is it not removed in this life? Is it because God cannot or will not?

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

As I was praying this morning, this is how the Lord showed it to me, to best describe the battle, and the war that wages in us.

As the spirit reigns, we can lead overcoming, victorious, glorious Romans 8 power-filled lives, but we cannot let down our guard against the enemy of our flesh that has not yet been destroyed... subdued yes... destroyed no.

We have just been given the *earnest* of our inheritance, and its full reward will not become ours until we have completely overcome in the day that we receive our glorified bodies. That is our hope. That is why we fight the fight of faith.

Already responded to this earlier in the post.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

As long as one has un-glorified flesh, they will deal with it's fallen tendencies and impulses. The nature of your sinful flesh hasn't changed. Now, the "spirit"... the "inner man"... has had a complete change of nature through the born again believer's union with God through the Holy Spirit. The born again believer is one spirit with the Lord. Thus the spirit is regenerated and has a new nature... but the flesh hasn't. Therefore, there is often a war between one's flesh and their spirit when it comes to carnal temptations and/or desires. We progressively overcome these things as we grow in Christ and learn to walk after the Spirit and mortify the deeds of the flesh. In doing this we grow in sanctification and become more Christ-like, being conformed into His image day by day. Yes, a believer can overcome sin and go a day without sinning. It is possible. The idea that one cannot go a day without sinning isn't biblical. However, throughout the believer's life they will discover that the carnal fallen nature of the flesh is alive and well. Rather it be falling into sins of immorality or sins of character, they will discover that the flesh is a force to be subdued daily through the Spirit. They may very well fall into sin. And if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. When a born again believer falls into sin the inner man is at odds with the action. Thus, there is deep shame, guilt, sense of condemnation, and it can progress into deep depression. This is because the inner man has no joy in the carnal deeds of the flesh. When one confesses their sin and turns back to walking in the Spirit, they experience joy and peace. The inner man (the spirit), the soul (their mind), and the deeds of their body are back in alignment.

What you have described is the experience of Romans 7 which is an unsanctified christian. Why not go on to a Romans eight experience and be a sainctified christian?

As to the underlined section where does the bible SPECIFICLY say that we must reatin the carnal nature un til we are glorified?