Original Sin

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Beloved, I did not understand where the question was coming from: so I only answered as I felt it was meant.

Ok. Thanks.

The question came from the claim some believe Adam did not make us sinners.

[mfblume]

Wow, this is really dragging.

So.... those who believe Adam did not make us sinners, what do you say about your idea that I claim demands we make ourselves righteous?

[mfblume]

I guess there is no response here from those who think Adam did not make us sinners when presented with the demand for us to save ourselves by works if that be the case, according to Romans 5.

[thephnxman]

Perhaps the horse is dead and the stick has
been worn down to a toothpick.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Perhaps the horse is dead and the stick has
been worn down to a toothpick.

But nobody addressed the actual issue. I can only say those who feel Adam did not make us sinners perhaps may realize that such a belief demands salvation by works, and they have no answer. But likely they'll keep believing Adam did not make us sinners anyway. Usually works that way. Just sweep that detail of the demand to preach salvation by works under the carpet.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But nobody addressed the actual issue. I can only say those who feel Adam did not make us sinners perhaps may realize that such a belief demands salvation by works, and they have no answer. But likely they'll keep believing Adam did not make us sinners anyway. Usually works that way. Just sweep that detail of the demand to preach salvation by works under the carpet.

OK: let's see if I understand you.

Adam sinned: and the sin was so great, it "stained" the seed (every man) in him.
Jesus was righteous: so much so that all men by Him (His seed) are righteous.
I believe that is what you say Rom 5, is saying, but please correct me.

What I see:
If we remain in Adam's (as his seed), we will do what Adam did: make ourselves
aprons to hide our sin. This also puts us outside of Christ.
If we are in Christ, we abide in righteousness by Him. Being IN Christ puts the
Church outside of Adam; and we are left only with the propensity to sin: but not
a part of Adam's sin, which was dealt with at the cross!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

OK: let's see if I understand you.

Adam sinned: and the sin was so great, it "stained" the seed (every man) in him.
Jesus was righteous: so much so that all men by Him (His seed) are righteous.
I believe that is what you say Rom 5, is saying, but please correct me.

No I am not saying that. Thanks for asking. Let me clarify.

I am saying that Adam's sin stained all mankind positionally, and without committing one single sin, we're still lost in Adam. But when we get baptized into Christ's death, we leave Adam and enter Christ and are made righteous positionally. Is not our position one of righteousness, but our behaviour might not match unless we learn and grow in grace?

What I see:
If we remain in Adam's (as his seed), we will do what Adam did: make ourselves
aprons to hide our sin. This also puts us outside of Christ.
If we are in Christ, we abide in righteousness by Him. Being IN Christ puts the
Church outside of Adam; and we are left only with the propensity to sin: but not
a part of Adam's sin, which was dealt with at the cross!

I disagree. Paul said one man's disobedience made us all sinners. It did not say it made us susceptible to the inescapable downward plunge of sin so as to render ourselves sinners by our actions. If that is the case, then the opposite would be that Christ did not make us righteous, but put an effect upon us that would cause us to be able to make ourselves righteous.

You see, that's the kicker! Christ M<ADE us righteous without us doing one thing to earn it. But you are saying we have to earn sinfulness.

Again, we have to look at it in reverse. Did Jesus make us righteous without our input, or didn't he? Was I made righteous as soon as I was saved because God gave me HIS righteousness before I had a chance to do one good deed, or not? I claim yes. THAT DEMANDS Adam made us sinners.

[mfblume]

See, brother?

Originally Posted by mfblume

No I am not saying that. Thanks for asking. Let me clarify.

I am saying that Adam's sin stained all mankind positionally, and without committing one single sin, we're still lost in Adam. But when we get baptized into Christ's death, we leave Adam and enter Christ and are made righteous positionally. Is not our position one of righteousness, but our behaviour might not match unless we learn and grow in grace?



I disagree. Paul said one man's disobedience made us all sinners. It did not say it made us susceptible to the inescapable downward plunge of sin so as to render ourselves sinners by our actions. If that is the case, then the opposite would be that Christ did not make us righteous, but put an effect upon us that would cause us to be able to make ourselves righteous.

You see, that's the kicker! Christ M<ADE us righteous without us doing one thing to earn it. But you are saying we have to earn sinfulness.

Again, we have to look at it in reverse. Did Jesus make us righteous without our input, or didn't he? Was I made righteous as soon as I was saved because God gave me HIS righteousness before I had a chance to do one good deed, or not? I claim yes. THAT DEMANDS Adam made us sinners.

[Esaias]

Paul said in Adam many were made sinners.

Why don't you want to explain HOW that occurs? I am not sure the reason for "let's not go there yet".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Paul said in Adam many were made sinners.

Why don't you want to explain HOW that occurs? I am not sure the reason for "let's not go there yet".

Don't take what I said and put a meaning behind it I never meant. I said first things first. I never said we won't go there. Did Paul or did Paul not say the opposite of whatever Adam did to us caused Christ to d the work to make us righteous without our assistance in any good works? No one is answering that. THAT is my issue to base the whole concept upon. I can't get past what Romans 5 said. We get to the other issues later. But they're only implications and the Romans 5 statements are foundational.

We have to get the facts straight first, and then deal with HOW. The bible does not explicitly deal with HOW as much as it deals with what happened. We need to handle what the bible does actually say before we get into any HOW issues, unless you can show me where the bible says HOW.