Why I Am A Futurist

[shag]

Originally Posted by shag

Esaias, I'd like your opinion on this...

Heb. 10:37

For "in a very long while, the one who is coming will return— he will not delay- nope.

For "in a long while, the one who is coming will return— he will not delay- nope.


For "in a while the one who is coming will return— he will not delay-nope.



For "in a very little while, the one who is coming will return— he will not delay-yep.



What is the purpose of the "very little while" in this verse?
(Even asside from the "will NOT delay".)

And..if you received that epistle 2000 years ago, what would you think?

Bump

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by shag

Esaias, I'd like your opinion on this...

Heb. 10:37

For "in a very long while, the one who is coming will return— he will not delay- nope.

For "in a long while, the one who is coming will return— he will not delay- nope.


For "in a while the one who is coming will return— he will not delay-nope.



For "in a very little while, the one who is coming will return— he will not delay-yep.



What is the purpose of the "very little while" in this verse?
(Even asside from the "will NOT delay".)

And..if you received that epistle 2000 years ago, what would you think?

I was just perusing this thread and found this. I don't think I ever saw this post to me! My bad!

And the Lord answered me and said, Write the vision, and that plainly on a tablet, that he that reads it may run. For the vision is yet for a time, and it shall shoot forth at the end, and not in vain: though he should tarry, wait for him; for he will surely come, and will not tarry. If he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by my faith.5 But the arrogant man and the scorner, the boastful man, shall not finish anything; who has enlarged his desire as the grave, and like death he is never satisfied, and he will gather to himself all the nations, and will receive to himself all the peoples.
(Habakkuk 2:2-4)

Paul was quoting Habakkuk from the Greek, as I here provided from Brenton's translation.

According to A. R. Faussett, this was around 610 BC, some 600 years before Christ. Paul however applies it to the brethren he was writing to:

Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Hebrews 10:35-39)

It seems that Paul was teaching 'you need patience so you might receive the promise'. His exhortation to be patient (and persevere) is then backed up by a reference and quotation from Habakkuk. He then carries the quotation to 'if any draw back' etc, and then states we (the faithful) are not of them that draw back but are of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

So then, it seems Paul did not refer this passage of Habbakuk to any particular eschatological event, but instead referred to it as expressing a principle that one should wait patiently and expectantly for God's word and promise to be fulfilled.

Looking at the actual prophecy, it appears to be referring to the coming of Messiah to receive all nations to himself. Even if you believe this took place in the first century AD, it was still over 600 years - almost 700 in fact - after the prophecy was given. Which means 'yet a little while' does not necessarily mean 'within YOUR physical lifetime' or any such thing.

In fact, this is a good evidence for historicism, as we see prophecies not necessarily being 'immediately' fulfilled but beginning a fulfillment quite some time after the prophecy was given.

I think the point of Habbakuk was not a specific time frame, but of the certainty of the Promise coming to pass. And I believe Paul drew on that point from the prophet, and applied it to the brethren he was writing to.

And it applies to us, as well. I do not believe Paul was saying 'Jesus is coming in our lifetimes' and honestly I don't see how anyone - regardless of eschatological position - could get that from that particular passage in Hebrews.

The larger context - that of persecution and the Lord executing vengeance upon the persecutors - indicates Paul was applying a 600 plus year old prophetic expression to their current persecution, saying that the Lord would indeed soon execute vengeance upon their persecutors (the Jews), . Which happened in 70 AD when the Lord's Olivet prophecy came to pass in the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your post makes absolutely no sense to me. I didn't say anything about us bearing long with God.

Let me clarify. If anyone is bearing long with a long delay involved before prayer is answered, then it is us bearing long with God, not God bearing with us. The very speaks of God bearing long with us. How does God bear with us if it's us who are waiting? So' if it's God bearing with us it's nothing to do with us waiting for God to answer prayer. In other words, your interpretation can't fit from what I read in the verse.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Let me clarify. If anyone is bearing long with a long delay involved before prayer is answered, then it is us bearing long with God, not God bearing with us. The very speaks of God bearing long with us. How does God bear with us if it's us who are waiting? So' if it's God bearing with us it's nothing to do with us waiting for God to answer prayer. In other words, your interpretation can't fit from what I read in the verse.

When My family takes a trip and my kids keep saying, "are we there yet" they are the one waiting, but I am bearing with them. The saints are crying out before the throne, but God is long suffering towards all who are lost and that would make me want to pull my hair out.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

When My family takes a trip and my kids keep saying, "are we there yet" they are the one waiting, but I am bearing with them. The saints are crying out before the throne, but God is long suffering towards all who are lost and that would make me want to pull my hair out.

I understand how you think of that, but I do not believe the Lord is saying that. It is us who bear long with waiting for God to answer us if the reading of that passage is speaking about a delay before answering our prayers. So, it does not fit as I see it.

Everyone, really. At hand means at hand. And shortly come to pass means the same thing.

Daniel 12 shows Daniel wanting to know what the visions he saw meant. He was told the book is sealed and at the time of the end knowledge shall be increased for the people at THAT TIME to know. (By the way, knowledge being increased is NOT the technology of the world etc.., lol. Wow I laugh every time I hear that taken out of context.) Knowledge of the prophecies would be increased, that's the context. And he was told the understanding was for the time of the end.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:8-9 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? (9) And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

So, sealing the book meant understanding was shut off for the prophecies. And the time of the end was when they would not be sealed.

Well...... we turn to Revelation and read this:

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Get it? SEAL NOT the sayings of this book. In other words, it IS FOR JOHN and readers to know! Daniel was 500 or so years before John. And 500 years was too long a time for Daniel to be in the need-to-know category. So, the time of the end was too far away from Daniel. But John's day is a different story. John was not told to seal the book. While Daniel was told the time of the end would see the unsealing, John was told it was UNSEALED. HE WAS N THE TIME OF THE END! And John was only 500 years after Daniel!

But John's words are supposed to about two thousand years after they were written? Rev 1:3 said they were AT HAND. The book could not be sealed because the time was AT HAND. If Daniel had to seal it only 500 years before John, and we are two thousand years after John and John was not to seal it since it was AT HAND to John's day, how in the world does that make an sense? What is a mere 500 years from Daniel to John for it to make a difference if we're 2000 years from John and the AT HAND still has not come to pass.

This is why it is ridiculous to say the AT HAND was not very very close to John, and not less than 500 years! It is utterly silly to say the at hand refers to thousands of years when Daniel was out of the loop for a mere 500 years for the books to be sealed.

All of these references are there for us to consider and help narrow down the truth of the matter. This is why I say IT CAN BE understood. People just are not aware of all of these associated passages.

And look at this:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Jesus said the gospel would go to all the world and then the end would come.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

We;;, that already happened.

Colossians 1:5-6 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; (6) Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

It's a cop-out trying to retain a false doctrine to say the LAST DAYS and the END OF THE WORLD spans two thousand years. That cannot fit because Daniel's sealed book and John's open book disallow it.

Peter quoted Joel and said the last days Joel spoke about were on the day of Pentecost 2000 years ago!

Acts 2:16-17 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Last days ARE NOT last millennia! They were int eh last days OF THE OLD COVENANT. THAT was the end they were talking about

WORLD in Greek is better translated AGE.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

AGE is the Greek world AEON, from which we get EON depicting an AGE, not the planet.

AN AGE ended. An old covenant AGE. The temple would be gone. that was INCREDIBLY SIGNIFICANT, though folks barely know the bible today and say nonsense like on preacher told me that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was a mere hiccup in prophecy! Hiccup? God put his name in Jerusalem, having searched all the cities of Canaan for His name. Jerusalem was called HIS WIFE turned WHORE. It was monstrously monumental for Jerusalem and the temple to be razed to the ground.

And all of this happened in a mere generation since the cross. 40 years! Just like Jesus said in Matt 24:34. He looked into their eyes and said YOU and YE fro all the events to occur before the end. he said some of them would still be alive when that would all take place.

he called it HIS COMING in Matt 21:40 when the religious leaders would be judged and the kingdom taken and given to another, and the pharisees knew better than apostolics today for they knew he spoke of THEM! And that is the only COMING Matthew ever talks about before chapter 24.

Folks, ya'll missed it. The popular view tends to always miss things like this. They did the first time!

[mfblume]

7 ISV Won't God grant his chosen people justice when they cry out to him day and night? Is he slow to help them?

[good samaritan]

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

It really doesn't matter what we think about scripture saying quickly, speedily, etc. because God's watch works different than ours. Once again that is why I don't lock in anything other than the Lord will return and there will be a judgement. Sure I believe in the fulfillment of all the prophecies in scripture, but I don't know which has and has not occurred. It's all just mostly speculation. One thing I am sure of is that the resurrection of the Church has not occurred because I am still here and I don't plan it going without me. lol.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

It really doesn't matter what we think about scripture saying quickly, speedily, etc. because God's watch works different than ours. Once again that is why I don't lock in anything other than the Lord will return and there will be a judgement. Sure I believe in the fulfillment of all the prophecies in scripture, but I don't know which has and has not occurred. It's all just mostly speculation. One thing I am sure of is that the resurrection of the Church has not occurred because I am still here and I don't plan it going without me. lol.

That passage is so famously taken out of context. It is not saying any given day with God means a thousand years with us. How many times have I addressed this? Lol. It means when God prophesies something, it's no more difficult to bring to pass whether there is a day's duration to fulfillment or a thousand years. Read it again.

In my opinion it does matter when we read "quickly," because God is communicating. And if he communicate about different units than we understand, communication is a joke. No, quickly meant quickly and he had our understanding in mind when he said that.

[good samaritan]

chilioi; plural of uncertain affinity;

When scripture says a thousand I understand that it may not be literally a thousand? If it doesn't have to mean a literal 1,000 than it could be 100,000. My thoughts is that Peter was telling us that our time and His time are not the same, but here is some of the following verses.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

I think the key is how we live are lives and not breaking codes and symbols. Eschatology is interesting, but no one really is ever proven right. The only thing we know is that we are still awaiting His return. If your doctrine doesn't see a future return of the Lord and a resurrection of the dead than like MTD said who are we? What are we doing because if we only have hope in this life we are miserable. If this life is supposed to be heaven on earth than I feel cheated. I recently have lost several close loved ones and to experience the pain and see the grief that many of my relatives carry. This isn't the kingdom age I looking to. I look to a day when there will be no more pain, nor sorrow, no sickness, no parting, etc. I am apart of His kingdom, but there will be a future kingdom age where there are no more limitations.

[good samaritan]

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

This is a rhetorical question. Will not God avenge His own elect? of course He will!!!
"though he bear long with them" is a statement it is not part of the question.

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Jesus is bearing long with them right now I believe. I believe the Lord hears the saints before the alter at this present moment and He bears the wicked in order for others to be saved.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us- ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I believe the length of time it has taken the Lord is due to His mercy. When He returns there will be no more opportunity.

Luk 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

I believe speedily is referring to the swift work of His return. Like a thief will work in haste Jesus will come without warning when people aren't expecting. The Church will be ready.