"Beards are sin!" False doctrine?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No. I'm a man with a beard, looking at Apostolic churches to attend in my area. All teach against beards. I can't find a prohibition against beards in my Bible, so... I'm wondering if it can be classified as a false doctrine.

Here's something to make you happy: If a minister claims that growing a beard is a sin, that is wrong. It's not scriptural.

The original question you ask is whether it is false doctrine. What is false doctrine? First, define what is doctrine. Doctrine is a set of beliefs or teachings based on the Word of God. So false doctrine would be something which is contrary to the beliefs and teaching of the Word of God.

For example: it is biblical doctrine that a person must be born again. False doctrine would then be claiming that you don't need to be born again.

For there to be a claim of false doctrine, there must be a doctrine to begin with. There is no early church doctrine on beards that I have found. So I would answer that it is not false doctrine, but would agree that any minister who claims beards are a sin would be in error.

Originally Posted by Aquila

I find it interesting that so many who are against beards, or support pastors who have standards against beards, NEVER heard it preached that having a beard is a sin. While it's possible that you have NEVER heard it preached against as a sin to have a beard by pastoral decree... I'm in doubt. I'm sure that you've heard it somewhere after all those years in Pentecost.

Again, the churches I've visited/attended included beards in the dress code for ministry/platform. Most of those churches had men in attendance who wore beards. The Pastor of the UPC church I currently attend includes beards in its dress code for ministry/platform. It's a relatively small church (approx 70 or so) and there are a few men who attend who grow either a full beard or mustache. I asked him about it when I first began attending and was told he doesn't believe it to be a sin, only a preference for those in ministry.

Originally Posted by Aquila

So, Apostolic pastors don't have to preach the Word of God? They can preach their opinions?

You're not understanding what I posted. The context was in regards to a Pastor adopting a dress code for ministry/platform. Don't try to twist this into something else.

Originally Posted by Aquila

You just made the case that Apostolic pastors don't have to teach a way of life grounded in Scripture.

Wrong. You're twisting what I posted and taking it completely out of context.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Ahhhh... there it is. The institutional corporate worldview that equates church with worldly incorporation. The church isn't Walmart. It isn't a corporation. It isn't a business. It's the Kingdom of God. If you don't like an employer's standards, you can freely find another employer. But if all the Apostolic pastors around you teach something that isn't biblical, and you have no desire to listen to their unbiblical mess, where do you go? What do you do? Comparing the church to a secular business is wrong headed. In addition, it reinforces the dangers of institutionalized religion. The institution has the authority to add to the Word of God. It's all wrong. How can we rebuke Catholics for all their stupid and unbiblical teachings, when we champion our own???

First, I'm surprised that you would be interested in attending an institutional church at all, what with your previous posts against them. Second, how a person responds shows the condition of their heart. So when a man will shave without a word for the dress code of a secular business, but whine and throw a tantrum over a dress code for ministry in a local church - it shows a lot.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Ummm... if it's in the Bible, I have no issues with it. But if it is his opinion, he's preaching his opinion, not Scripture.

As stated above, I agree that any minister who claims growing a beard is a sin is wrong. I do not believe it is the same as false doctrine, by simple definition.

Originally Posted by Aquila

No. I'm pointing out a doctrine and tradition of men... unless you can provide Bible for it no one is obligated to obey it. If your pastor commanded you to wear a tinfoil hat and a purple polka dot suit, would you do it??? It's not Scriptural. It's an abuse of power. It's everything those who champion Bible over tradition stand against.

Back to context. This is regarding dress code for men who wish to be involved in the ministry/platform. If the church I attended had a dress code stating I had to wear a tinfoil hat and purple polka dot suit to be used in the ministry/platform, I would find another church in which to minister.

See how easy that is?

Originally Posted by Aquila

I have no issue with dress codes that encourage modesty. Modest is a biblical Christian discipline.

Modesty isn't only about a dress code.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Again, you're seeing the church as a worldly corporate institution ruled by men instead of a spiritual Kingdom bound to the Word of God.

That's untrue.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Actually, that's kinda why I asked this question. I AM looking for an Apostolic church to attend.

Which seems odd to me, considering the previous posts made against institutional churches.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I just want you to understand that I'm not against sound modesty teaching. Modesty is biblical.

But prohibitions against beards are arbitrary human opinions.

Modesty isn't only about dress.

What I have seen used for ministry/platform guidelines includes more than just dress, so perhaps my calling it a dress code is confusing you.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Amanah

liberal UPC church with mood lights that's like a high-class jazz bar and no altars? what planet are you from?

I didn't mean all UPC churches some haven't compromised but I've seen some that are like clubs on videos and stuff. Because all that stuff is to set a mood and draw a crowd. That's a huge thing that's why my church split from the UPC because a lot of that movement has gone that way. Many churches compromised standards and even Acts 2:38. All I was saying you can find a church that is compromising just trying to draw a crowd if you look is all. Didn't mean any disrespect to those attending UPC churches.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother, if I have misrepresented what you intended to say, please accept my sincere apologies. I also extend an invitation to you to explain in your own words what you meant when you said the following . . .

"In fact, and you're really not going to like this, he doesn't have to have scripture and verse to do so. Period. End of story."

Please explain how I am being dishonest when I say that you believe that the pastor should not be held accountable to scripture. If I have misrepresented your position I hope to be man enough to offer sincere apologies. Please proceed to explain what you really meant to say. Maybe then you can respond to the rest of my post with relevant scripture references.

I appreciate this post, thank you.

"In fact, and you're really not going to like this, he doesn't have to have scripture and verse to do so. Period. End of story."

This was regarding guidelines set for those who wish to be involved in a church ministry or on the platform. This isn't about a doctrine being preached. This is simply about guidelines and preferences for dress, appearance and conduct for those who desire to be used in ministry/platform. These may include things which are not sin and as such do not have chapter and verse, but are the preference of the church leadership. I have served on the church board/Pastoral counsel of two churches, so this may not be indicative of how things are done elsewhere -- in those churches, these guidelines were set by the church board.

Your response at the end included: "Oh . . . I forgot . . . You don't need to quote scripture. Just because . . . I guess anything goes."

That is simply untrue and takes out of context my statement.

[derAlte]

I've been around a few decades and have heard all sorts of reasons why a man should not have a beard...i.e. that male facial hair is actually male makeup, that one is identifying oneself with liberal clergyman, or the hippy movement, etc. In my judgment (that and 5 cents will get you a cup of coffee at Wall Drug in South Dakota) it is simply not intellectually honest to proclaim male facial hair a sin. There isn't a lick of scripture against it. The clincher for me is the fact that the Lord Jesus himself, whom we sing that we want to be like, had a beard. End of story. He is the ultimate arbiter of what is sin and what is not. If He did it, it must not be wrong.

Do I have a beard? No. I don't like having a bushy face. I don't think my Friend cares that I stay clean shaven. I don't condemn anyone who has facial hair. If someone grows a beard just rile up those in authority, it isn't the hair that's the problem, its the heart. We live in a world full of cantankerous and ornery people who would grow a beard just to get a rise. I'm not sure being right on facial hair and out of unity with the body is worth it.

We have ministers in our UPCI district that have facial hair and they are accepted by most who have realized that God is not about to write "Ichabod" over the life of a guy just because he has some hair on his face.

I heard that a preacher in another state sent his son out to start a branch work. The son, after pastoring this branch work for awhile decided to grow a beard. As far as I know, the son still pastors the branch work but when he returns to his dad's church, he is only allowed to run the sound booth because of his beard. This sounds awfully silly to me. I'm not sure the son's attitude was right by growing it but it seems strange that he can pastor out in the field but his ministry is not acknowledged in the home church because of some hair on his face.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by n david

I appreciate this post, thank you.

"In fact, and you're really not going to like this, he doesn't have to have scripture and verse to do so. Period. End of story."

This was regarding guidelines set for those who wish to be involved in a church ministry or on the platform. This isn't about a doctrine being preached. This is simply about guidelines and preferences for dress, appearance and conduct for those who desire to be used in ministry/platform. These may include things which are not sin and as such do not have chapter and verse, but are the preference of the church leadership. I have served on the church board/Pastoral counsel of two churches, so this may not be indicative of how things are done elsewhere -- in those churches, these guidelines were set by the church board.

Your response at the end included: "Oh . . . I forgot . . . You don't need to quote scripture. Just because . . . I guess anything goes."

That is simply untrue and takes out of context my statement.

Originally Posted by n david

Here's something to make you happy: If a minister claims that growing a beard is a sin, that is wrong. It's not scriptural.

The original question you ask is whether it is false doctrine. What is false doctrine? First, define what is doctrine. Doctrine is a set of beliefs or teachings based on the Word of God. So false doctrine would be something which is contrary to the beliefs and teaching of the Word of God.

For example: it is biblical doctrine that a person must be born again. False doctrine would then be claiming that you don't need to be born again.

For there to be a claim of false doctrine, there must be a doctrine to begin with. There is no early church doctrine on beards that I have found. So I would answer that it is not false doctrine, but would agree that any minister who claims beards are a sin would be in error.


Again, the churches I've visited/attended included beards in the dress code for ministry/platform. Most of those churches had men in attendance who wore beards. The Pastor of the UPC church I currently attend includes beards in its dress code for ministry/platform. It's a relatively small church (approx 70 or so) and there are a few men who attend who grow either a full beard or mustache. I asked him about it when I first began attending and was told he doesn't believe it to be a sin, only a preference for those in ministry.


You're not understanding what I posted. The context was in regards to a Pastor adopting a dress code for ministry/platform. Don't try to twist this into something else.


Wrong. You're twisting what I posted and taking it completely out of context.


First, I'm surprised that you would be interested in attending an institutional church at all, what with your previous posts against them. Second, how a person responds shows the condition of their heart. So when a man will shave without a word for the dress code of a secular business, but whine and throw a tantrum over a dress code for ministry in a local church - it shows a lot.


As stated above, I agree that any minister who claims growing a beard is a sin is wrong. I do not believe it is the same as false doctrine, by simple definition.


Back to context. This is regarding dress code for men who wish to be involved in the ministry/platform. If the church I attended had a dress code stating I had to wear a tinfoil hat and purple polka dot suit to be used in the ministry/platform, I would find another church in which to minister.

See how easy that is?


Modesty isn't only about a dress code.


That's untrue.


Which seems odd to me, considering the previous posts made against institutional churches.

Originally Posted by n david

Modesty isn't only about dress.

What I have seen used for ministry/platform guidelines includes more than just dress, so perhaps my calling it a dress code is confusing you.

Very cool posts

Anymore questions concerning this thread should be directed to these postings by ndavid.

[derAlte]

Originally Posted by Amanah

I'd worry more about attending charismatic house churches, or Trinitarian churches, or sitting at home in isolation and becoming whacked out.

I got a kick on how you worded this, Sister. In all seriousness, what do you actually mean by "whacked out?" It can mean all sorts of things in my part of the country.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Very cool posts

Anymore questions concerning this thread should be directed to these postings by ndavid.

Dom, You must have missed my posts where I asked your Church's policy on beards. Is there one? Does anyone there have a beard? I wont ask again.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by derAlte

I got a kick on how you worded this, Sister. In all seriousness, what do you actually mean by "whacked out?" It can mean all sorts of things in my part of the country.

I meant that people can stray into heresy without input from the church family and the ministry.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I didn't mean all UPC churches some haven't compromised but I've seen some that are like clubs on videos and stuff. Because all that stuff is to set a mood and draw a crowd. That's a huge thing that's why my church split from the UPC because a lot of that movement has gone that way. Many churches compromised standards and even Acts 2:38. All I was saying you can find a church that is compromising just trying to draw a crowd if you look is all. Didn't mean any disrespect to those attending UPC churches.

thank you for your reply, I appreciate it.