Do you hafta go through the pastor?

[Felicity]

tbpew.........

The only reason I personally asked for a concise wrap-up of perhaps 10 points or whatever is because I believe it would be helpful and beneficial to not only the readers but even for yourself perhaps in organizing your thoughts providing teaching for others either now or in the future. (Not meaning to be presumptious here.)

As I said earlier, I agree with many of your points as I do with Coonskinner's. I think between you both there's pretty good balance represented.

[Felicity]

I'm not into the "rule by elders" thing at all. Everything needs a head -- even if you had rule by a board of elders someone would need to be delegated a leader in my opinion. And in the natural course of things, even if one wasn't delegated, one would emerge. It's always the way.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I'm not into the "rule by elders" thing at all. Everything needs a head -- even if you had rule by a board of elders someone would need to be delegated a leader in my opinion. And in the natural course of things, even if one wasn't delegated, one would emerge. It's always the way.

Yes, I agree...

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Barb

Yes, I agree...

Yes, I feel that is where the episkopos or "overseer" or bishop comes in. From among the presbyters (elders) a bishop is selected.

Depending on the age and nature of the work, the bishop and elders may be selected from the "mother church" or originating work the way Paul sent Titus to ordain elders.

In some cases the work may be such that the "bishop" is the only "full time" minister, or even be "bi-vocational" himself. The "elders" may be "elders-to-be" and all new converts.

The NT system was supposed to be flexible to adapt to all sorts of circumstances.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by tbpew

In my opinion, it is the exact same misapplication of spiritual governance if one man is a ruler over individual members of the body of Christ or a plurality of men function as a RULING counsel (eldership) over individual members of God's own body. The bishops and elders have their mission in God's design --providing oversight of the common/shared connections within the assembly of saints --but not the individual saints.

The entire basis of my engagement (maybe my first bullet for Felicity and Barb ),
1. Authority must be strictly expressed in terms that include what categories or REALMS it has dominion to operate within.
Note: to discuss authority without including what is SUBJECT to the authority is a silly waste of boredom-producing bandwidth .

The often referred to 'five-fold ministry' is not about offices of men but are about the revelation of God's supply of equipping gifts to establish each member of his own body in their own calling and election.

The Spirit of God does ALL THE WORKs listed in Eph 4:11 as ministry/service to his own habitation.

Apostles are guidesProviding the Genesis; establishing the foundational elements in any setting
Prophets are guidesProviding a clear sound concerning the utterance of God's word in counsel and direction
Evangelists are guidesHeralding the good news of Emmanuel, the reconciliation of men back to peace with God, enabled by the completed work of Calvary's sacrifice
Pastors are guidesProviding service to those as babes in Christ or to those who weary in their journey, stumble or fall, directing them how to be refreshed, renewed, encouraged
Teachers are guidesWhat they have received in understanding of the invisible they share with those who have not considered or those that need greater witness from within the structures of the visible world.

As many as are led by the Spirit (guided by the Spirit) they are the SONS of God. God's blessing is established in the multiplicity, diversity, and humility of guides that he has provided to each of us for our own journey.



Note to Bro Easty,
somebody else will have to be your source of simplicity. I do not believe I am a suitable vessel for your approach to engaging ideas and viewpoints. Your repeated assessment of my word usage style has provided the basis for my conclusion. Thanks for making the point so clear to me.

Brother, thank you for these definitions. I'm going to print out this post and compare it to what I read in the word of God and make notes.

There is a fine line between being a ruler and a guide, in my opinion.

The group of men who gathered at Jerusalem to discuss the debate about Gentiles having to keep the law and be circumcised would be an interesting example to use in making a one's case of rule vs guide. Do you have any thoughts on that event?

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Yes, I feel that is where the episkopos or "overseer" or bishop comes in. From among the presbyters (elders) a bishop is selected.

Depending on the age and nature of the work, the bishop and elders may be selected from the "mother church" or originating work the way Paul sent Titus to ordain elders.

In some cases the work may be such that the "bishop" is the only "full time" minister, or even be "bi-vocational" himself. The "elders" may be "elders-to-be" and all new converts.

The NT system was supposed to be flexible to adapt to all sorts of circumstances.

pelathasis,
take a moment and share a few situations in which you envision the episkopos having an utterance that must be obeyed by the individual member in Christ because of a God-ordained authority being resident.

Then, I ask you to consider; what realm does this 'matter' exist in? Temporal/earthly or eternal/Kingdom of God? Shared or private?

I have labored in my posting to make clear my understanding that, if you have a plurality of humans assembling in any type of shared experience, there will inherently need to be a means to reconcile and administrate any specific realities that occur in that environment. The "common/shared" experience demands a system of order, an agreement for adhering to established protocols during 'connection sessions'.

My attempt has been to communicate that any shared/common experience that is conducted as part of "not forsaking our assembly" [our gathering together as Saints], will be served by overseers who administer scripturally-outlined protocols. There role in these shared assemblies involving 2 or 3 or more saints, will NEVER result in any member of the body of Christ having RULE over any other member of the body. The applicable REALM will only involve conduct and interaction within the SHARED/COMMON experience involving two or more members of Christ.

If TWO can not walk together unless they agree [on the rules for connecting], certainly when the whole church gathers in one place, there must be a system of order. Do the gifted vessels that serve the Kingdom of God in such service have any authority over the individuals who are benefactors from this system of order? Absolutely NOT.

WAAAAAYYYYYY back, in my earlier posts, I used an analogy to neighborhoods.

On my land,
in my house,
in my own marriage
and certainly in my own body....

those holding public office have almost NO authority.
That list identifies various boundary crossings that define REALMS in which the overseers that have been commissioned by the authories have no jurisdiction.

In the public/shared realms involving environments such as water, air, roadways, and civil law, these individuals, commissioned by the authorities, have unquestionable rule in the common space or when the application of a common/civil law is violated within the private space.

Pel,
please consider taking a few moments and provide a scene that depicts your last post.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by tbpew

pelathasis,
take a moment and share a few situations in which you envision the episkopos having an utterance that must be obeyed by the individual member in Christ because of a God-ordained authority being resident.

Then, I ask you to consider; what realm does this 'matter' exist in? Temporal/earthly or eternal/Kingdom of God? Shared or private?

...

Pel,
please consider taking a few moments and provide a scene that depicts your last post.

Thanks tbpew. If that is supposed to stand for "The Back Pew?" you need to move up to the front.

In all honesty, after reading this carefully I cannot provide a such a scenario. My point was to emphasize flexibility in the structure. When you say:

The applicable REALM will only involve conduct and interaction within the SHARED/COMMON experience involving two or more members of Christ."

I think we're in agreement. This is where the "rule" is to be exercised. You may lose some people in your reasoning when you say:

Their role in these shared assemblies involving 2 or 3 or more saints, will NEVER result in any member of the body of Christ having RULE over any other member of the body.

because not everyone will make the connection with the statement that immediately follows (even though that statement does immediately follow).

My understanding of the "rule" covers "the church;" the "conduct and interaction within the shared/common experience." This of course would not be understood to give the saints license to rob banks when they are away from the shared/common experience, or other ridiculous examples that I'm certain that you do not intend. However, there is a certain polemic meme that seems to drag many of our brethren's thoughts aside to those ridiculous examples.

It is frustrating that when you give the Good News that people are "free in Christ," someone somewhere pops up to ask, "free to rob banks?" Such people perhaps don't need "bishops." They just need babysitters. And there are preachers more than willing to provide that service.

You my friend, I believe you are simply free.

[mizpeh]

TB,

How does the OT time of the judges relate to the NT church or does it when it comes to having a 'ruler' over us?

God was considered their King and He set up judges to deliver his people and guide them to a certain extent like Moses had. Then the people asked for a king similar to the surrounding nations much to the dismay of God and Samuel. Is there any correlation or anything we can learn from them in our current dispensation/covenant?

[tbpew]

Miz,
I acknowledge my lack of response to your last two posts that included questions to me.

I will commit to rejoin the thread and respond ASAP after my normal close of business (5:30pm EDT).

I think your posting would be a basis for many AFF'ers to share their understanding of the former and the new has been established.

One specific point that I would very much value your direct reply to:

Q. Do you Mizpeh, believe that a pastor sits in Moses' seat concerning matters involving local/city assemblies?

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by tbpew

In my opinion, it is the exact same misapplication of spiritual governance if one man is a ruler over individual members of the body of Christ or a plurality of men function as a RULING counsel (eldership) over individual members of God's own body. The bishops and elders have their mission in God's design --providing oversight of the common/shared connections within the assembly of saints --but not the individual saints.

The entire basis of my engagement (maybe my first bullet for Felicity and Barb ),
1. Authority must be strictly expressed in terms that include what categories or REALMS it has dominion to operate within.
Note: to discuss authority without including what is SUBJECT to the authority is a silly waste of boredom-producing bandwidth .

The often referred to 'five-fold ministry' is not about offices of men but are about the revelation of God's supply of equipping gifts to establish each member of his own body in their own calling and election.

The Spirit of God does ALL THE WORKs listed in Eph 4:11 as ministry/service to his own habitation.

Apostles are guidesProviding the Genesis; establishing the foundational elements in any setting
Prophets are guidesProviding a clear sound concerning the utterance of God's word in counsel and direction
Evangelists are guidesHeralding the good news of Emmanuel, the reconciliation of men back to peace with God, enabled by the completed work of Calvary's sacrifice
Pastors are guidesProviding service to those as babes in Christ or to those who weary in their journey, stumble or fall, directing them how to be refreshed, renewed, encouraged
Teachers are guidesWhat they have received in understanding of the invisible they share with those who have not considered or those that need greater witness from within the structures of the visible world.

As many as are led by the Spirit (guided by the Spirit) they are the SONS of God. God's blessing is established in the multiplicity, diversity, and humility of guides that he has provided to each of us for our own journey.



Note to Bro Easty,
somebody else will have to be your source of simplicity. I do not believe I am a suitable vessel for your approach to engaging ideas and viewpoints. Your repeated assessment of my word usage style has provided the basis for my conclusion. Thanks for making the point so clear to me.

Actually you did a fine job of providing simplicity here. Great job for being more suitable (personally, I didn't think you wanted to be simple, but you had to be simple before you could get complicated. The water is shallow before you get to the deep) Whats the difference between a guide and a leader pewy, or is this another one of those questions that you have to get deep with? (Pewy, if you don't wanna play nice with me, then it would be better not to respond to anyone else with a little sidenote to me)