Oneness and Trinitarian Unity?

[good samaritan]

[QUOTE=justaguy;1448255]

First off, a lot of my comments are referring to earlier posts. But we can discuss them if you wish and will stay with what the actual text declares, something most OP will not do.

Jesus, as the Son, IS the Creator regardless of whether we believe Oneness or Trinity... Paul in Colossians is excruciatingly plain about this.

Col 1:16-17 For by him (the Son vs 13-15) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Joh 1:3....All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I don't disagree with any of this except the idea that it is in different persons. God the Father is a Spirit and the Spirit of The Father indwelt the Son Christ Jesus. They are not distinct persons. I too agree that Jesus exsisted prior to the incarnation, but it is difficult and confusing to explain how it works. I personally believe that Jesus was the fourth man in the fire with the three Hebrew boys in Daniel. If you think about once a person dies, I think you would agree that we all enter eternity.

This is somewhat deep, but eternity is not just meaning a never ending future. Eternity is outside of time. No beginning and no end. Jesus was manifest naturally in time, but in the resurrection he dwells outside of time. I other words Jesus no longer is living in a time zone, but he dwells in the eternal. Therefore he is very capable to be anywhere in our natural time he chooses to be even in creation.

I don't think this is important for any of us to think about only to know who Jesus is.

Jesus, the "Son of" God created the Heavens and the Earth, and ALL that exists in them.

It was Jesus who created Lucifer.

Reality altering concept for most, I know... but either it is true, or Joh 1:3 and Col 1:16 are in error. This means that the God of creation in Genesis 1:1 IS Jesus. This means that Jesus, the Son of God, was already in existence before Genesis 1:1, LONG before Mary was born, and LONG before His fleshly body came into existence.

Furthermore, four times in Revelation 1:8 & 11; 21:6; 22:13 Jesus declares "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" or "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end"... and three times in Isaiah 41:4; 44:6;..48:12..the Old Testament LORD of Hosts declared "I am the first, and I am the last." There cannot be TWO distinct separate persons who can BOTH claim this... thus it must be the same individual... or someone is lying.

THUS, Jesus of the New Testament IS therefore the LORD of Hosts of the Old testament, the God of Isaiah's visions, the One who declared "beside me there is no God" verse 44:6.

I Thank what I just explained would not compromise any of the scriptures you have quoted, but still does not make separate persons in the Godhead.

But that is not ALL the Bible has to say on the subject... and if you knew ALL of the text on the subject you would see that while Jesus IS the God of the Old and New Testaments, He is not the Father, and there is One to whom He is subordinate.

True that Jesus is subordinate to the Father, but it is still not as in a separate person. The Spirit of God indwelt Jesus Christ and therefore Christ was subordinate to what the invisible Spirit was doing. He was not subordinate as in simply taking commands, but instead he was one with God and the mind and will of God the Father was in Him.

Col 1:15....Who is the "image" of the invisible God... as you have proven in the Greek, this declares that Jesus was a replica, a COPY of the original... but there is a huge difference between the original and a reproduction or copy... even if the copy is "perfect" it is still just a copy.

I never said that Jesus was a replica or a copy. My point was that he was visible image of God. Jesus isn't a copy of another person in the Godhead, but he is the visible image of the invisible God. His relation to God as Son is because of the physicality of his person. God is omnipresent, but Jesus the image of God had locality. Again, God is not a person, but a Spirit.

1Co 15:28....And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This is something else deep and hard to understand and I am not saying I got it right. This is what I believe though. We are going to die as well and enter eternity. Again, eternity is outside of time so we are as well going to enter a dimension (if it is o.k. to use that term) where there is no time. That being said we are eternal as well. We will have no beginning and no end. We are eternal ourselves and the role Jesus is to reconcile our eternal souls to the eternal God who Gave them. That God may be all in all.

1Cor 15 declares that when ALL of this is finished, The Son who is is HEAVEN will subordinate Himself to the Father and that the Father is GREATER than the Son, having subordinated all things to the Son to begin with... the Father is the DOER and the Son is the receiver of the actions of the Father. Col 1 agrees with this. Thus the Father and the Son are distinct individuals or Persons

This part about distinct persons is where we disagree. The Bible never uses trinity terms as three persons in a God head. The Father/Son illustrations are relationships, but it doesn't make there 3 people up in heaven with different rankings. That is probably not how you view it, but that is IE what the doctrine of the Trinity comes to.

Rev 3 also declares this to be true but takes it to a whole new level.

Rev 3:12....Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Jesus Himself said that there is One whom He calls HIS "GOD"... and those who overcome will bear TWO names, the name of Jesus AND the name of His "God."

According to Revelation 3:12 in the way you interpret there will be three names. name of God, name of the city new Jersalem, Christ's new name. I interpret this the same as Mathew 28:19. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, And of the Holy Ghost. The word "and" is taken from the Greek word kai which can be interpreted even, also, as well some other ways. The name written in Revelation 3:12 where not three different but was one name of God that that the image of Christ also bore.

As for the thrones in Heaven, Jesus would disagree with you... there are two, not one.

Rev 3:21....To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

One Throne. It belongs to God, Jesus is seated upon it and we will as will. I don't expect to see a literal throne in the resurrection. I am sure you know that this is a vision. Thrones represent dominions.

[Esaias]

Justaguy, you ever post here before under a different name?

If there is one God, and if Christ is God, and beside him there is no God, then how many Gods are there if Christ is not the Father, but the Father is still God?

[shazeep]

may as well go read philosophy, imo.

[mfblume]

the difference between one or more gods is more than philosophy.

[shazeep]

is it? how many years you been following this discussion? been about 40 for me, and i see no end in sight. so i mean bam discuss the definition of the Unknown God all you like, and when you're done be sure to count the fruit.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

is it? how many years you been following this discussion? been about 40 for me, and i see no end in sight. so i mean bam discuss the definition of the Unknown God all you like, and when you're done be sure to count the fruit.

You may not care whether there's more than one God or not, but some do. It's the first commandment.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You may not care whether there's more than one God or not, but some do. It's the first commandment.

well, don't miss the point. you posit that i may not care about something that i already know, and i'm just asking that the fruit of debating the nature of God be counted.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, don't miss the point. you posit that i may not care about something that i already know, and i'm just asking that the fruit of debating the nature of God be counted.

You answered ,y post when I simply was saying some care about whether there is one God or more, by saying implying that is all philosophy. So, sir, please practice what you preach and note the point you respond to.

[shazeep]

oh, sorry, worse than philosophy then.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

oh, sorry, worse than philosophy then.

People negate anything that goes against their private interpretation.