Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I won't quibble, but most of my unborn children were named.

Abortion is a societal ill, so in that regard we all share in it. I think rather than laying blame squarely on the church in this matter, you can find it is the church that is at the forefront in aiding those effected by unplanned pregnancies, and yes, even treating the unborn as real children.

The church is at the forefront of trying to stop abortion now that is true. That doesn't change that it was the churches practices that made unborns be viewed as less than people to begin with.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I was born in Northeast Tn (further east than knoxville) and maybe I'm out of the loop but I've never heard of a miscarried baby being buried.

You illuminate our death-centricity as Christians here.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I was born in Northeast Tn (further east than knoxville) and maybe I'm out of the loop but I've never heard of a miscarried baby being buried.

Can take you to Goins Cemetary in East Campbell County, just between the Victory and Alder Springs communities. I know of at least 3 graves there for miscarried babies. These are from the mid to late 70's. And several more still born babies from various years and families. Many of these families delivered at home and had no doctor or healthcare giver available.

More graves over in Victory Church cemetery also in Campbell County. I know of 2 in Union County, because I attended the grave side funerals, both of these were miscarriages.

2 years ago, I went to a grave side for an Apostolic Pastor who he and his wife had a miscarriage.... here in the Middle TN area....

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

Can take you to Goins Cemetary in East Campbell County, just between the Victory and Alder Springs communities. I know of at least 3 graves there for miscarried babies. These are from the mid to late 70's. And several more still born babies from various years and families. Many of these families delivered at home and had no doctor or healthcare giver available.

More graves over in Victory Church cemetery also in Campbell County. I know of 2 in Union County, because I attended the grave side funerals, both of these were miscarriages.

2 years ago, I went to a grave side for an Apostolic Pastor who he and his wife had a miscarriage.... here in the Middle TN area....

This goes along with what I'm saying that miscarried babies being buried was rare. I would suspect that stillborns are buried quite more often then miscarried babies. But regardless it's apparent that since miscarried babies are not typically buried that they are thought of as something other than a born baby. Yes we can find examples of all kinds of weird practices but I think you can agree that the norm was not for miscarried babies to be buried.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

You illuminate our death-centricity as Christians here.

I don't follow?

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think you and Titus2woman ignored the main point. The point was that Christians have traditionally not treated unborns/stillborns as people in the few ways they can treat them as people. They don't name them and they don't bury them. Sure that's starting to change but it isn't there yet.

I can only think that if Christians had done their part and acted like unborns were people for the last 2000 years then abortion wouldn't even be a debate right now. So what I'm saying is stop pointing the finger at those who have abortions and saying "murderer" when you and your religion have not acted like unborns deserve the same ceremonies as born people. You're religion has kept and maintained that divide between born and unborn people and so it's no surprise when the world follows your example and principle. If you treat unborns differently than those that are born then don't condemn others for doing the same thing!

Did you read my post? If so you would see that the unborn have typically been treated the same way at death as any person with only close family and no friends, by being grieved privately.

Pomp and ceremony for the dead used to be and still is in many places reserved for those of some public concern. Simple people bury their dead quietly. When I die it is my wish that my family view my body in my home for one day, I will then be placed in a simple box that was made for me by my son and they will write words of love on the box. Then it's out to the pasture where my other sons will have dug the hole I'm going in. There are some contingencies for if my body is in too bad of shape to be viewed, etc. but there is none for a 'funeral' as one would understand it... Does that make me less a person?

My oldest son was not named until he was a week old and out of danger... was he less a 'person' during that week simply because he was baby boy Sweet?

What you are saying makes no sense to me and feels like a grasping attempt at justification. I do not consider abortion unforgivable, it is like any other sin and I am not sure that God rates sins one above another since all sin separates us from God. But to say it is not killing a human is just silly, silly, silly.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Did you read my post? If so you would see that the unborn have typically been treated the same way at death as any person with only close family and no friends, by being grieved privately.

Pomp and ceremony for the dead used to be and still is in many places reserved for those of some public concern. Simple people bury their dead quietly. When I die it is my wish that my family view my body in my home for one day, I will then be placed in a simple box that was made for me by my son and they will write words of love on the box. Then it's out to the pasture where my other sons will have dug the hole I'm going in. There are some contingencies for if my body is in too bad of shape to be viewed, etc. but there is none for a 'funeral' as one would understand it... Does that make me less a person?

My oldest son was not named until he was a week old and out of danger... was he less a 'person' during that week simply because he was baby boy Sweet?

What you are saying makes no sense to me and feels like a grasping attempt at justification. I do not consider abortion unforgivable, it is like any other sin and I am not sure that God rates sins one above another since all sin separates us from God. But to say it is not killing a human is just silly, silly, silly.

Surely you understand that the typically practice for miscarried babies is different than the typical practice for born babies. Now I want you to sincerely answer this question. Why is the typical practice for miscarried babies different than the typical practice for born babies? If you don't reach the same conclusion I have reached that is okay but I think you will...

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

This goes along with what I'm saying that miscarried babies being buried was rare. I would suspect that stillborns are buried quite more often then miscarried babies. But regardless it's apparent that since miscarried babies are not typically buried that they are thought of as something other than a born baby. Yes we can find examples of all kinds of weird practices but I think you can agree that the norm was not for miscarried babies to be buried.

Miscarried babies are typically discovered at a doctors appointment. They are then extracted in a medical procedure called Suction Dilatation and Curettage. The 'remains' are sent to the pathology lab to be examined for completeness and disease possibilities. No one ever offers to return them to parents and indeed parents that ask are treated as weird.

Miscarried fetuses passed at home are usually accompanied by heavy bleeding and dropped in a toilet, making them hard to find and/or recover.

The simple truth is that there is just not usually anything to bury. It is in no way a sign that the family has not suffered a loss or does not grieve.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Miscarried babies are typically discovered at a doctors appointment. They are then extracted in a medical procedure called Suction Dilatation and Curettage. The 'remains' are sent to the pathology lab to be examined for completeness and disease possibilities. No one ever offers to return them to parents and indeed parents that ask are treated as weird.

Miscarried fetuses passed at home are usually accompanied by heavy bleeding and dropped in a toilet, making them hard to find and/or recover.

The simple truth is that there is just not usually anything to bury. It is in no way a sign that the family has not suffered a loss or does not grieve.

When a person dies and he has no remains left there will often be a memorial service for that person. Even if there is nothing to bury why is a memorial service type thing not held?

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Surely you understand that the typically practice for miscarried babies is different than the typical practice for born babies. Now I want you to sincerely answer this question. Why is the typical practice for miscarried babies different than the typical practice for born babies? If you don't reach the same conclusion I have reached that is okay but I think you will...

I have already answered your question but gave it another good thinking about. Same answer... they do not have any connections yet to other humans. Once delivered they are seen/held by grandparents, aunts and uncles, siblings. Stillbirths fall somewhere in between... some have a ceremony and some just send the baby to the lab to be examined and disposed of.

The medical community generally considers it a fetal demise rather than a miscarriage at 20 weeks although many providers call it a fetal demise above 12 weeks the primary concern being whether they themselves can extract it or if the patient must be referred to a specialist.