It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Aquila?

The geocentric model was ancient Greece. Galileo's issues were more political then religious. Try picking up a book, instead of marching your Atheist propaganda through the thread.

I never said that politics didn't play a part.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've never been a suck up to the establishment. Nor have I ever let a panel of men me what to believe or how to interpret Scripture.

so how does the following scripture apply to your life?

Ephesians 4:11-13

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If your child was deathly ill... do you just pray and see what happens, come what may... or do you pray AND take them to the hospital?

What has that got to do with understanding how changed we can be through the blood of Jesus? Believing in use of a Hospital has nothing to do with God's power to heal. they are totally separate and distinct and are not related to one another whatsoever whether one makes use of a hospital or not. Same with genetics and new birth. We do not need genetics to understand how to spiritually live a changed life and know we're changed whatsoever.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

so how does the following scripture apply to your life?

Ephesians 4:11-13

Interesting question. I appreciate that. Let's look at the text:

Ephesians 4:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Punctuation is important here. The King James scholars had a more congregational form of church. So they chose punctuation in accordance to their preference. However, more recent translations that are less biased translated the very same text this way...

Ephesians 4:11-13 English Standard Version (ESV)
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

I'm instantly reminded of what one of our house church elders said. Bro. Renis said, "My job is to preach myself out of a job."

An elder is a seasoned saint of God with a spiritual maturity, understanding, and wisdom that is more advanced than his fellows. However, each elder has a given calling, role, or job within the body. Some are "apostles" (missionaries). Some are prophets (supernaturally gifted preachers and seers who reveal the mind of God through the Spirit). Some are evangelists (those gifted in the ways of sharing the Gospel and in the winning of souls). Some are shepherds (gifted spiritual mentors and counselors). And some are teachers (gifted to expound upon the Scriptures to reveal their teaching).

So, we have "elders" that guide the church... and each elder might be gifted in any of the five ministries listed above. The combined purpose of these ministries is to "equip the saints for the work of ministry". That's right, to train and spiritually prepare all of us to go forth to serve a lost and dying humanity, plucking as many from the fire as will respond to the call of the Gospel. They are to build us up, encouraging and strengthening us, in our efforts to fulfill the Great Commission and to become the unified and Christlike in our advancement of the Kingdom of God.

That's my understanding of the text. Why do you ask?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

What has that got to do with understanding how changed we can be through the blood of Jesus?

Nothing really. I was just wondering what role the "isms and the -etics and the -phies" might become rather important to you.

Believing in use of a Hospital has nothing to do with God's power to heal.

You're right. And that was my point. We carry in us all the spiritual and emotional baggage of our sins. And in our flesh, we also carry the baggage of the sins and experiences of our ancestors. I firmly believe that "healing" can be spiritual, emotional, and physical. I believe that sometimes more is necessary to see one set free than having their inner man regenerated, or their soul comforted and encouraged. Sometimes a sin or behavior is rooted in an infirmity of the flesh. My God can heal spirit, soul, and body. But all too often, we fail to consider the physiological condition of our fallen flesh. And so after one has received the Spirit and has repeatedly renewed their minds, they often continue to struggle with a given sinful proclivity. This can drive some to give up on trying to live for God, or worse... suicide. If certain sinful proclivities can indeed be found to be connected to infirmities in our flesh... then we can better understand how we are to pray. Some folks don't need to just make a different choice. Some folks don't need to just "try harder". They've done this for years and they're still struggling. They need a complete and utter healing of the spirit, soul, AND BODY.

they are totally separate and distinct and are not related to one another whatsoever whether one makes use of a hospital or not. Same with genetics and new birth. We do not need genetics to understand how to spiritually live a changed life and know we're changed whatsoever.

You know, they used to try to cast the devil out of those stricken with cerebral palsy and other developmental disabilities. But today, we know that they don't need the devil cast out of them as much as they need a physical healing. Understanding the physiological aspects of their condition has helped us better pray for them and encourage them.

So, if they PROVE beyond a doubt that homosexuality can have a genetic component. It matters. It matters because it will explain why these people can get the Holy Ghost, mentally determine to never be gay again, and yet still be brought back to it over and over and over and over. It underscores their need not only for spiritual regeneration and salvation, not only their need to renew the mind, but also their need for an actual physical healing.

I've known quite a few gay people. We even have a lesbian couple in our family. It seems like try as they might, they can't shake it. However, one person in the church I used to attend prayed through and was set free instantly. He was hesitant to admit it because he feared being wrong. But he lost all desire for other men. In fact, he admitted to having had less than appropriate thoughts about women; something he said he had never had before. His mannerisms were still gay, though. Which was weird. But he was saying he wasn't gay anymore. I prayed about it because I was suspicious. And I felt the Spirit tell me, "I healed him through and through." And, God was right. After several years the man's mannerisms changed and you'd barely recognize him if you knew him back when he was gay. He's also still into women.

Here's the deal. I began to wonder what it meant to be healed "through and through". And the more I heard and learned about the genetic aspects of various behaviors and proclivities... the more I began to realize what was meant by this man having been healed "through and through".

It's like praying for a bipolar person. Yes, you want them to repent of sin and their irrational anger and manic frenzies of rage. But until they get healed... they'll struggle with the condition.

I'm not saying gay people can't be set free. I'm saying that the science helps us pin point where the prayer is needed should they be struggling. It also helps us to remain more patient and compassionate with people. It also helps us to understand why they say, "I've always been this way.", or, "I was born this way.", or, "I've tried to change and couldn't."

I'm saying that we can take what we can learn from the Word, the Spirit, and science and put them together to better understand what we're dealing with.

Just imagine if we were ministering to someone who was bipolar and we simply said, "He just needs to make up his mind and choose not to be bipolar!" Some things will take far more than will power to overcome. Some things will actually require a supernatural touch from God that heals through and through.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Interesting question. I appreciate that. Let's look at the text:

Ephesians 4:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Punctuation is important here. The King James scholars had a more congregational form of church. So they chose punctuation in accordance to their preference. However, more recent translations that are less biased translated the very same text this way...

Ephesians 4:11-13 English Standard Version (ESV)
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,

I'm instantly reminded of what one of our house church elders said. Bro. Renis said, "My job is to preach myself out of a job."

An elder is a seasoned saint of God with a spiritual maturity, understanding, and wisdom that is more advanced than his fellows. However, each elder has a given calling, role, or job within the body. Some are "apostles" (missionaries). Some are prophets (supernaturally gifted preachers and seers who reveal the mind of God through the Spirit). Some are evangelists (those gifted in the ways of sharing the Gospel and in the winning of souls). Some are shepherds (gifted spiritual mentors and counselors). And some are teachers (gifted to expound upon the Scriptures to reveal their teaching).

So, we have "elders" that guide the church... and each elder might be gifted in any of the five ministries listed above. The combined purpose of these ministries is to "equip the saints for the work of ministry". That's right, to train and spiritually prepare all of us to go forth to serve a lost and dying humanity, plucking as many from the fire as will respond to the call of the Gospel. They are to build us up, encouraging and strengthening us, in our efforts to fulfill the Great Commission and to become the unified and Christlike in our advancement of the Kingdom of God.

That's my understanding of the text. Why do you ask?

because when you said:
"I've never been a suck up to the establishment. Nor have I ever let a panel of men me what to believe or how to interpret Scripture. "

I wondered if you meant that you were not accountable to anyone, but by what you posted you are telling me that isn't so?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

because when you said:
"I've never been a suck up to the establishment. Nor have I ever let a panel of men me what to believe or how to interpret Scripture. "

I wondered if you meant that you were not accountable to anyone, but by what you posted you are telling me that isn't so?

Our elders are much like mentors. They advise, guide, and admonish. But we aren't expected to obey them like mini-popes. lol

Our House Church Constitution reads:

Section 4, Article H:
H. Every member of the Graceway Fellowship has the right to disagree with portions of this constitution and to search the scriptures for themselves, as did the noble Bereans (Acts 17:11), to see if these things are so. So long as the 5 doctrinal foundation points of H (Acts 2:38 salvation), I (Priesthood of All Believers), J (Definition of "Church"), K (Oneness of God), and Q (Issue of tithing) are held to, members of The Graceway Fellowship are free to question, discuss, debate, or disagree with any other point in a spirit of love (John 13:35). If there are serious differences in these minor points, membership in the network of The Graceway Fellowship shall be left up to the discretion of the individual rather than the network. All believers shall be accepted by The Graceway Fellowship on the basis of life, integrity, and doctrine (points H, I, J, K, and Q) and no barriers will be raised to divide such individuals due to points of other minor contention. (See Section 4, Article B)

Here's Section 4, Article B...

B. No barriers shall be erected to divide brethren of like precious faith. All believers shall be accepted on the basis of life, doctrine, and integrity. Our objective is not to divide, but rather to unify.

So, we have liberty to discuss various issues from various points of view and to allow the Spirit to guide us each as individuals. Often, what is good for one saint of God would not be good for another. Our elders mentor us as we seek the will of God in our lives. And they "standby" with open arms should we error. They encourage us to learn to hear God. Believing that as we learn to walk, we'll occasionally stumble, but we'll be all the wiser for it. Our fellowship is largely influenced by the Quakers, Baptists, and a couple ex-UPCI folk (of which I am one). We also have some other evangelical perspectives present.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Our elders are much like mentors. They advise, guide, and admonish. But we aren't expected to obey them like mini-popes. lol

Our House Church Constitution reads:

Section 4, Article H:
H. Every member of the Graceway Fellowship has the right to disagree with portions of this constitution and to search the scriptures for themselves, as did the noble Bereans (Acts 17:11), to see if these things are so. So long as the 5 doctrinal foundation points of H (Acts 2:38 salvation), I (Priesthood of All Believers), J (Definition of "Church"), K (Oneness of God), and Q (Issue of tithing) are held to, members of The Graceway Fellowship are free to question, discuss, debate, or disagree with any other point in a spirit of love (John 13:35). If there are serious differences in these minor points, membership in the network of The Graceway Fellowship shall be left up to the discretion of the individual rather than the network. All believers shall be accepted by The Graceway Fellowship on the basis of life, integrity, and doctrine (points H, I, J, K, and Q) and no barriers will be raised to divide such individuals due to points of other minor contention. (See Section 4, Article B)

Here's Section 4, Article B...

B. No barriers shall be erected to divide brethren of like precious faith. All believers shall be accepted on the basis of life, doctrine, and integrity. Our objective is not to divide, but rather to unify.

So, we have liberty to discuss various issues from various points of view and to allow the Spirit to guide us each as individuals. Often, what is good for one saint of God would not be good for another.

thank you Aquila, sounds interesting.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

thank you Aquila, sounds interesting.

We've had some rather spirited discussions during our Bible studies. lol

Our Bible studies are discussion based. The elder will often lead out with a passage, share his thoughts, and what He felt the Lord place on his heart. Then the elder opens the floor for discussion. Everyone can contribute their insight or understanding. We're challenged to take everything we've learned and to allow the Holy Spirit to help us incorporate it into our lives or understanding. Sometimes the elders have appointed members to bring a passage, song, poem, or something that we are moved to discuss in the meeting. Our elders are Renis, David, Scott, and Nate. I've been tempted to step out into the fray, but I'm not ready.

I've shared these pictures before, but this might give you a sense of who we are:

In the first picture is our Agape feast. We break bread and have Communion afterwards. In short, the entire ordeal is referred to as the Lord's Supper. I'm in the blue and brown stripped shirt eating on the right, Bro. David (an elder mention above) is sitting right across from me hamming it up for the picture. Afterwards we clean things up real quick and go down to the basement for the study/discussion. It's popular to call it a "Conversation", but I think it's corny. lol

In the second picture, we're preparing to baptize some seekers in a pool at a couple's home. I'm in the water wearing yellow, Bro. David (elder) is wearing the black T-shirt, while Renis (elder) is climbing down into the pool. Nate (elder) is standing in the background wearing green.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We've had some rather spirited discussions during our Bible studies. lol

Our Bible studies are discussion based. The elder will often lead out with a passage, share his thoughts, and what He felt the Lord place on his heart. Our elders are Renis, David, Scott, and Nate. I've been tempted to step out into the fray, but I'm not ready.

I've shared these pictures before, but this might give you a sense of who we are:

In the first picture is our Agape feast. We break bread and have Communion afterwards. In short, the entire ordeal is referred to as the Lord's Supper. I'm in the blue and brown stripped shirt eating on the right, Bro. David (an elder mention above) is sitting right across from me hamming it up for the picture.

In the second picture, we're preparing to baptize some seekers in a pool at a couple's home. I'm in the water wearing yellow, Bro. David (elder) is wearing the black T-shirt, while Renis (elder) is climbing down into the pool. Nate (elder) is standing in the background wearing green.

to be honest it seems awesome Aquila.