Confidentiality of Tithes

[Steve Epley]

Got to go. This money-power hungry pastor has a young lady going into labor at the hospital she has had some complications. So my wife and myself will be demonstrating our lust for power sitting in a hospital waiting room all day and maybe tonite. I really am feeling powerful today. You reckon I need to post this on the church bullitin board so folks know how powerful I am? Or I could ask some saint to take off from work and sit with them as a delegate to show I am not power hungry.

[returnman]

Originally Posted by Sweet Pea

Okay --- let me give two scenarios of how these pastors may use the tithes in your church.

(A) ALL the tithes are deposited into a "Hometown Apostolic Church Tithe Account". Pastor then writes himself a salary check from that account and deposit it into his "personal account" - from which he pays his personal expenses. As the need arises for evangelists, missionaries, church repairs, benevolence, etc, etc, Pastor writes checks from the "HAC Tithe Account" . Additional salaries, if any, (assistant pastors, secretaries, etc) are also paid from the "HAC Tithe Account".

OR

(B) Pastor has only the "HAC Tithe Account" that he uses for personal expenses, and all the other expenses I listed above that are "church" related.

I understand how some ministers came to either scenario. In the old days, people paid their tithes with produce, hens, eggs, side of beef, a butchered hog, etc. etc .... it was given directly to the Pastor. As more and more people came off the farms and began earning real money, people still gave their $$ tithes directly to the Pastor. That evolved into what some of you have described as your experiences.

I guess my question in either scenario would be - how is the money counted and handled? What if a saint writes one check for $200 and designates in the memo: $150 tithes / $50 offering - how does that $50 ever get to the general fund? Do pastors TELL their saints to write separate checks? Do the saints get two separate contribution statements at the end of the year? One for "Tithes" and one for all other contributions? If the saint was ever audited by the IRS - this would raise all kinds of flags and in turn cause audits of the church and the pastor.



I am afraid that unless scenario A were used and VERY detailed records were kept by the Pastor for both the "HAC Tithe Account" AND his personal account, he would find himself in a heap of trouble with the government if there was ever an IRS audit of the pastor's tax return or the church.

Based upon my perception of Brother Epley, I believe he is an honest man and does not abuse the tithes that he receives - however, if he ever has a disgruntled saint that wants to bring him down, all it takes is one phone call. For his sake (and his wife's sake) - I pray that he has kept and will continue to keep VERY accurate and detailed records of EVERY penny spent and how it was spent.

And people - don't kid yourself, we are living in a time when the government is looking for ways to bring down churches and it is only going to get worse at this rate.

Personally - I have been very blessed all my life. In the churches I have attended, ALL the contributions (including tithes) have been deposited into one bank account. The pastor received his salary / housing from that. All other ministers, secretaries, maintenance workers, etc received their income from the same account. ALL church expenses, (evangelists, missionaries, church maintenance, etc etc) came from that account as well. ALL this was disclosed at annual business meetings. To me - that is the only logical way for a church to operate - this way everything is above board and it leaves no questions for "where did the money go" type questions.

The way it should be. Why in the world would anyone have a problem with it except for some paranoid/control issue. I think the whole issue stems from the way a pastor is percieved. In most apostolic churches where the pastor started or built the church or took it in it's infancy, the people have grown accustomed to not questioning such practices as this discussion. Some pastors are wiser and more accountable to thier sanits then others. It's not a question of "if I serve you, you bless me and don't ask, don't tell." There is no bible for keeping any of this secret.

[returnman]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Got to go. This money-power hungry pastor has a young lady going into labor at the hospital she has had some complications. So my wife and myself will be demonstrating our lust for power sitting in a hospital waiting room all day and maybe tonite. I really am feeling powerful today. You reckon I need to post this on the church bullitin board so folks know how powerful I am? Or I could ask some saint to take off from work and sit with them as a delegate to show I am not power hungry.

It's apples and oranges Elder. Based on these statements, I can't help but conclude that you probably fall into the category of being fearful of what annual tithing disclosure would reveal for some reason. Only you can answer that. Having never met you, I think you are a good, descent, caring man no doubt.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Have y'all considered Pastors' job is 7-24? All hours of the night and day I am at the beck and call of the saints. EVERY activity I have is scheduled around them. My family comes second. Birthdays, anniversaries, vacations are cancelled at whim because of the need or 'imagined need' of a saint. My supper time is not off limits or family time. I am not complaining but if I could take complaining saints with me for one month they would shut their mouths forever(maybe). In one day I have been to as many as 4 hospitals hours apart, counseled 2 young couple with maritial problem, encouraged a discouraged saint, done church business, and yes tried to get in a prayer session and study time to feed the saints. Supper was cold, wife was a little annoyed and I was worn out, put myself to bed only to be awakened in the dead of night to pray for someone with a bad cold. That is more normal than not. Again that is my calling so I am NOT complaining but most church members do not have s clue. I would like to be able to make some go with me just a month I wonder if they would last an entire week I doubt it. Most guys and gals have 8 hour shifts and go home and enjoy their families.
When you guys go to the Doctor do you demand to see his earnings?

It sounds like you need to help your people to have a relationship with GOD and learn to call on Him in times of trouble.

Overstating the pastors role in a person's life is what causes this. When you set yourself up as 'the watchman on the wall' or 'the man of God' or 'the intercessor' you encourage this behaviour.

I know many people who do not believe that anyone else can pray for them when they are in emotional distress, experiencing sickness, or greiving, with any effect, except their pastor...And where did they get that idea? Well from their pastor of course.

So the short answer is that I do not really believe that a pastor should be finanacially rewarded for producing weak, codependant saints that can not even let him have dinner with his family uninterupted.

Oh and while you are at it maybe bring someone in to talk about boundries, basic respect and decency and the importance of family above other obligations as the family is God ordained.

Your people seem to really need teaching.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Have y'all considered Pastors' job is 7-24? All hours of the night and day I am at the beck and call of the saints. EVERY activity I have is scheduled around them. My family comes second. Birthdays, anniversaries, vacations are cancelled at whim because of the need or 'imagined need' of a saint. My supper time is not off limits or family time. I am not complaining but if I could take complaining saints with me for one month they would shut their mouths forever(maybe). In one day I have been to as many as 4 hospitals hours apart, counseled 2 young couple with maritial problem, encouraged a discouraged saint, done church business, and yes tried to get in a prayer session and study time to feed the saints. Supper was cold, wife was a little annoyed and I was worn out, put myself to bed only to be awakened in the dead of night to pray for someone with a bad cold. That is more normal than not. Again that is my calling so I am NOT complaining but most church members do not have s clue. I would like to be able to make some go with me just a month I wonder if they would last an entire week I doubt it. Most guys and gals have 8 hour shifts and go home and enjoy their families.
When you guys go to the Doctor do you demand to see his earnings?

Maybe if the churches were taught to be a body ministering one to another all this stuff wouldnt happen as much.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Maybe if the churches were taught to be a body ministering one to another all this stuff wouldnt happen as much.

PREACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ain't that the truth.


I would like to also add my thanks to Brother Epley fielding all of these questions. If one were to pop in it would seem that everyone is jumping on him but the truth is... he's the one willing to field the questions and so we take the opportunity to ask.

So... thanks for that Brother Epley.

[returnman]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

PREACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ain't that the truth.


I would like to also add my thanks to Brother Epley fielding all of these questions. If one were to pop in it would seem that everyone is jumping on him but the truth is... he's the one willing to field the questions and so we take the opportunity to ask.

So... thanks for that Brother Epley.

Ditto....we love im.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Some of you people have WAY too much time on your hands to write day and night like you do!
Have you ever PLANTED a church? Have you ever started from SCRATCH and built a Church, A Bible School, an orphanage, a feeding station, dug fresh water wells, fed the hungry by the hundreds and thousands? Preached in the streets, huts, shacks, baptized in contaminated rivers and streams?
Have you ever taken a small church and worked day and night to grow it into a productive church and SACRIFICED TO DO IT?
Some of you are soooooooo worried about the money! Where were YOU when the lights got turned on and the gas bill was paid? Did you pay for the rent or buy the sign or print the brochures or pay the Radio and TV bills?
How many hospital visits have you made in the last years, month, week?
How many people have you married, buried, dedicated, prayed through, taught Bible Studies, Preached sermons, baptized, visited? Fed, Clothed, taken the last dime and dollar you had to someone that was in need. HOW MANY JAILS have you visited and helped families of the incarcerated or given them Bible Studies.
How many young men have you worked with in Jail to get them into a Christian Rehab and worked to disciple them there?
How many have taken every dime you had and paid the rent on a building and bought a sign and had the lights, water and gas turned on, bought chairs, got a PA system, pulpit, screens, lights, projectors, baby and childcare equipment, paid for all the children's lessons to be duplicated. Taught, trained, educated teachers and staff to be kind, helpful and love people?
You people sit in the bleachers and scream at the umpire and players while eating your popcorn and drinking Coke and YOU don't have a CLUE!
I don't care what you think about me or Pastor Epley! The fact is - We have worked and given our lives, time, money, efforts, energy and everything we have in this world to build churches, love people, just to HELP SOMEBODY GO TO HEAVEN!
You guys are arguing over who is going to HELL while WE are working day and night trying to get someone else into heaven.
I am sick of it. Sick of you stingy, selfish, tightwads that argue about the tithe and you have never done anything for the KINGDOM OF GOD except sit and judge and criticize those who have.
Get up off your seat and go do something for the KINGDOM! Put up or shut up!
Pastor Epley, You and I disagree on exactly HOW to get to heaven and other points of Theology and ideology but one thing for sure - There is NOBODY on this forum - gonna out work, out pray, out fast, out give, or OUT LOVE us when it comes to SOULS! - Well - Sister Alvear and Sherri do an incredible job too - but they are not the ones sitting on the sidelines arguing! They are WORKING TOO!
This is exactly why I stay off this CRITICAL FORUM! People that sit and write this dribble all day about not tithing and the sabbath! Give me a break! You are not concerned about the SABBATH - you just want an audience! You just want to run your mouth and tell somebody what you know and you don't know JACK about the Kingdom of God!
It sickens me to read this mess and to know how off based and crazy people have gotten to argue all this mess.
One day I will be preaching and will fall down dead and my life will be over. But one thing for sure - There will be MANY that will keep preaching what I have taught them and do what I have ordained them to to and that is the Preach the WORD, Be instant in season and out of season, rebuke, reprove, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. Save the lost, heal the sick, cast out devils, command men everywhere to REPENT and be baptized for the Kingdom of God is come! We are not building a MINISTRY but MEN and WOMEN to PREACH THE KINGDOM OF GOD and to save the lost from their sins.
That is MY sermon for the day and I could care less what you think about it. If you REALLY believe what you say you believe - You better get down to business and do something about it instead of sitting on a computer all day - writing about TITHE and THE SABBATH & house churches! Give me a GOSPEL BREAK! You RELIGIOUS people are nuts!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Got to go. This money-power hungry pastor has a young lady going into labor at the hospital she has had some complications. So my wife and myself will be demonstrating our lust for power sitting in a hospital waiting room all day and maybe tonite. I really am feeling powerful today. You reckon I need to post this on the church bullitin board so folks know how powerful I am? Or I could ask some saint to take off from work and sit with them as a delegate to show I am not power hungry.

I don't think you're money or power hungry. Some are, but not you. I think you're just owned by the system. You think that the way you do it is best and perhaps the only way it should be done.

Many simply disagree.

[ThePastorsCoach]

I will tell you this about my friend Pastor Steve Epley. He could be a multi-millionaire if he wanted to be. I preached for his dad - Pastor David Epley in Miami many times and he had it going with a huge church, TV and Radio Ministry and money coming in daily in the mail.
I know the sacrifices SE has made to preach what he preaches and that is why I admire him. We disagree doctrinally but I do love him and know he is not Power or Money hungry. God bless you Pastor Epley - Keep preaching it! Anything less would be a shame and a disgrace!

I so resent people that have no clue what it takes to build a church or ministry or feed the hungry or go to the nations and come home and go straight to the hospital from being so sick. Critical spirits that will NEVER save the lost and preach the KINGDOM OF GOD!