Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

Miscarried babies are typically discovered at a doctors appointment. They are then extracted in a medical procedure called Suction Dilatation and Curettage. The 'remains' are sent to the pathology lab to be examined for completeness and disease possibilities. No one ever offers to return them to parents and indeed parents that ask are treated as weird.

Miscarried fetuses passed at home are usually accompanied by heavy bleeding and dropped in a toilet, making them hard to find and/or recover.

The simple truth is that there is just not usually anything to bury. It is in no way a sign that the family has not suffered a loss or does not grieve.

By the way Bro. Robbins testimony of having seen graves for miscarried babies seems to show that if people had really wanted to do a burial for a miscarried baby that they could have. His testimoney takes quite a bit away from the argument that they didn't bury miscarried babies because there was nothing to bury.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

When a person dies and he has no remains left there will often be a memorial service for that person. Even if there is nothing to bury why is a memorial service type thing not held?

If a person dies who has not friends and few family members there will be no one at a memorial service. My mother died March 1st. She had outlived almost all her friends and most of her family. She has also moved very far away from all of us to be with my brother. There was no service. I viewed her body at the hospital, had a funeral home pick her up and she was cremated. They mailed me her ashes in a box.

These types of arrangements are very common now and if everybody that you know that dies has a funeral you must run around in some sheltered circles. It has never been that the majority of adult humans who die on planet earth in any given time period have funerals.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

I have already answered your question but gave it another good thinking about. Same answer... they do not have any connections yet to other humans. Once delivered they are seen/held by grandparents, aunts and uncles, siblings. Stillbirths fall somewhere in between... some have a ceremony and some just send the baby to the lab to be examined and disposed of.

The medical community generally considers it a fetal demise rather than a miscarriage at 20 weeks although many providers call it a fetal demise above 12 weeks the primary concern being whether they themselves can extract it or if the patient must be referred to a specialist.

But they do have a connection to other humans. They have a connection with their mother and maybe even their father.

I've went to funerals where I didn't know the person that was being buried because it was a friends uncle or grandpa being buried. Why wouldn't people come to a miscarried babies funeral / memorial service for the same reason I go to my friends family members funerals?

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

By the way Bro. Robbins testimony of having seen graves for miscarried babies seems to show that if people had really wanted to do a burial for a miscarried baby that they could have. His testimoney takes quite a bit away from the argument that they didn't bury miscarried babies because there was nothing to bury.

You have started to contradict yourself frog. There are USUALLY no remains. That does not stop someone from having a funeral if they desire... when people die in manners where remains are not left one can still have a funeral with an empty casket representing the decedent or a memorial service or NOT... It's up to the families. Most choose to grieve privately for babies lost early in pregnancy as a public announcement would often go to those who did not even know they had ever been pregnant. Also sadly women still feel some shame at losing a pregnancy... many will ask what they 'did wrong to cause it'... So it's not something they want to share with everyone.

How is it that you are judging others grief or using it as a yardstick to try to prove that a fetus is not a human? This is twisting off into something bizarre and convoluted. I have to concur with AYR that you are simply willfully deluded on this topic. So peace out frog.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

If a person dies who has not friends and few family members there will be no one at a memorial service. My mother died March 1st. She had outlived almost all her friends and most of her family. She has also moved very far away from all of us to be with my brother. There was no service. I viewed her body at the hospital, had a funeral home pick her up and she was cremated. They mailed me her ashes in a box.

These types of arrangements are very common now and if everybody that you know that dies has a funeral you must run around in some sheltered circles. It has never been that the majority of adult humans who die on planet earth in any given time period have funerals.

I think you are very mistaken on that.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

You have started to contradict yourself frog. There are USUALLY no remains. That does not stop someone from having a funeral if they desire... when people die in manners where remains are not left one can still have a funeral with an empty casket representing the decedent or a memorial service or NOT... It's up to the families. Most choose to grieve privately for babies lost early in pregnancy as a public announcement would often go to those who did not even know they had ever been pregnant. Also sadly women still feel some shame at losing a pregnancy... many will ask what they 'did wrong to cause it'... So it's not something they want to share with everyone.

How is it that you are judging others grief or using it as a yardstick to try to prove that a fetus is not a human? This is twisting off into something bizarre and convoluted. I have to concur with AYR that you are simply willfully deluded on this topic. So peace out frog.

You're the one contradicting yourself. You first said they couldn't have a funeral because there was no remains, nothing to bury. Now you're saying they can have a funeral with an empty casket if they wish which must mean they don't wish to.

It should be a very legit to question why people grieve in different ways over a born baby than an unborn one. At least I would think that descrepancy would be worth noting and investigating?

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I don't follow?

the "life is cheap" mentality--I prolly can't make this connect any better right now, sorry.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

You're the one contradicting yourself. You first said they couldn't have a funeral because there was no remains, nothing to bury. Now you're saying they can have a funeral with an empty casket if they wish which must mean they don't wish to.

No frog... I said they often DO NOT HAVE A FUNERAL... not that they can't. I've also said that many people feel a funeral an expensive obligation and if they can avoid one they will... Easier to do if not everyone is aware that there has been a loss.

But regardless... if there is one set of standards for a miscarriage, another set for a stillbirth and yet others for a child, young person, adult and the very aged... Well the bottom line is that it still changes nothing about whether or not they are a person. You have attempted to set up a fallacy in that if they are treated differently that somehow proves that they have less worth when it does not.

I have simply tried over and over to show you that different families, ethnicities, socioeconomic groups, etc. have different parameters then what is your norm, which appears to be a funeral for all dead humans. Most of us don't do that... we only do funerals when the public would be interested to see the persons final arrangements. Otherwise it is a private matter. There is variance on both sides of that and I've tried to show it...

But really it is all futile discussion as it changes not that a human is a human from it's inception in the mind of God even prior to it's conception here on earth. I believe that God knew each of us in His foreknowledge... So do you also not believe in an omniscient, omnipotent God, frog?

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think you are very mistaken on that.

And I you. Do you live in a bubble frog?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

No frog... I said they often DO NOT HAVE A FUNERAL... not that they can't. I've also said that many people feel a funeral an expensive obligation and if they can avoid one they will... Easier to do if not everyone is aware that there has been a loss.

But regardless... if there is one set of standards for a miscarriage, another set for a stillbirth and yet others for a child, young person, adult and the very aged... Well the bottom line is that it still changes nothing about whether or not they are a person. You have attempted to set up a fallacy in that if they are treated differently that somehow proves that they have less worth when it does not.

I have simply tried over and over to show you that different families, ethnicities, socioeconomic groups, etc. have different parameters then what is your norm, which appears to be a funeral for all dead humans. Most of us don't do that... we only do funerals when the public would be interested to see the persons final arrangements. Otherwise it is a private matter. There is variance on both sides of that and I've tried to show it...

But really it is all futile discussion as it changes not that a human is a human from it's inception in the mind of God even prior to it's conception here on earth. I believe that God knew each of us in His foreknowledge... So do you also not believe in an omniscient, omnipotent God, frog?

I think you mistook my position. My position on this issue regarding burial hasn't been that by showing a miscarried baby is treated as less than human means it isn't a human. That's not the point I was making. The point I was making was that abortions stem from society viewing a miscarried baby as less than human and all these practices where a miscarried baby is treated differently than a human being reinforce and propogate that belief.