House church or excuse?

[Cracker Barrel]

Originally Posted by shazeep

amen

I visited a "apostolic " house church, the guy who spoke da word of prophesy had a beard, the pastors wife had cut hair to the shoulders. They baptized a gal in the pool with inappropriate thin white tshirt on, "in the titles which is Jesus Christ' lolo I say!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Would never use the term "proxy" in relation to an ever-present God. It makes it sound like He isn't present and people are acting on His behalf. Understand, we believe He is truly present in Spirit and acting "through" His body.

"...THERE I AM AMONG THEM."

Face it, the only thing that keeps you clinging to this "proxy" notion is the fact that you don't like to be corrected. lol

Amen!!!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Cracker Barrel

I visited a "apostolic " house church, the guy who spoke da word of prophesy had a beard, the pastors wife had cut hair to the shoulders. They baptized a gal in the pool with inappropriate thin white tshirt on, "in the titles which is Jesus Christ' lolo I say!

Beard and cut hair no issue. The UPCI custom on hair is only a human tradition.

As for the baptism.... the most ancient baptismal custom was to baptize converts in the nude.

[shazeep]

um, ya, what he said. anyway...

Originally Posted by Cracker Barrel

I visited a "apostolic " house church, the guy who spoke da word of prophesy had a beard, the pastors wife had cut hair to the shoulders. They baptized a gal in the pool with inappropriate thin white tshirt on, "in the titles which is Jesus Christ' lolo I say!

i say that you may be scoffing at something holy. Who told you her t-shirt was inappropriate?
ps, i am talking about you over here http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=49839 are your ears burning?

[Aquila]

Seriously, Christian baptism is essentially a carry over from the Jewish Mikveh. Mikveh was, and still is, performed with the convert self-immersing, in the nude. They are expected to humble themselves and enter the water nude and to emerge nude, from the "womb of the world", as newborn babes. Early New Testament baptisms found in the Gospels, such as John's, were done without baptismal robes or attire. Converts dropped their garments and approached the bank, waded into the water, and were submerged. They then waded back to the bank and dressed. In ancient Christian art we see depictions of water baptism in the nude in the catacombs and iconography. As the church moved into more asceticism and celibacy, any nudity became taboo and soon the notions of modesty found in the Roman Catholic Church today became normative. Then enter the Medieval period, the Puritan period, and the Victorian periods with their notions of modesty. Each era has influenced modern notions of modesty as recognized in modern American culture. Today the only Christian sects that baptize fully nude are scattered "Christian Naturist" organizations.

For a truly "Apostolic" water baptism, you'd baptize converts in the nude, in natural (living) water (river, lake, spring, pond), in the name of Jesus Christ.

P.S.
Early Christian custom allowed for pouring over the nude convert as they stood in water, or a basin, starting in the latter half of the first and early part of the second century.

[Aquila]

Our house church likes to use a local family's swimming pool for water baptisms. We've also baptized in a lake water at Eastwood Park (a local park). During the winter months many house churches use a hot tub (if outdoors). Some have agreements with local churches to use their baptismals on off hours (like ours). But more and more house churches are turning to pouring over the convert as they stand over or in a basin.

The first picture below is our house church baptizing in a local family's pool (I'm on the right in the yellow ). The second is a house church baptizing a convert through pouring out on a back deck.

[Esaias]

How do you "immerse" someone by pouring water over their head?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How do you "immerse" someone by pouring water over their head?

Right. IIRC, this was debated a while back when Aquila said he used, or would use, a Red Solo cup to "baptize" someone.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How do you "immerse" someone by pouring water over their head?

Those who advocate pouring look at it this way. The word "baptize" is:

907 // baptizw // baptizo // bap-tid'-zo //

from a derivative of 911 ; TDNT - 1:529,92; verb

AV - baptize (76), wash 2, baptist 1, baptized + 2258 1; 80

1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean
with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3) to overwhelm

Thus they believe that to "baptize" can mean:

1.) To dip, immerse, or submerge.
2.) To wash or bathe.
3.) To overwhelm.

The Bible states that we are "buried" with Christ in baptism. For most, to be "buried" implies immersion, like one placed in the ground and completely covered with dirt. However, many note that ancient burial custom among the Jews was to entomb. The "burial" actually involved water and consisted of the body being "washed" (baptized) with water prior to being wrapped in the burial cloths. The proper manner in which this was done was to pour water over the body to wash (baptize) it. Because of this, those who believe in pouring actually argue that the pouring of water over the convert is symbolic of pouring water over the body for burial. They also point out that the baptism of the Holy Spirit was "poured" out on the Day of Pentecost.

In the first and second centuries baptisms performed by pouring consisted of pouring water over the convert, allowing the water to saturate them from head to toe as they were standing. This was eventually codified in the Didache. In the Didache, baptism was allowable through the pouring of water over the head only if natural water to baptize in wasn't available.

House churches (and mainstream churches) that pour take their cue off these early Christian understandings (which are continually reflected in first and second century baptismal depictions throughout the catacombs).

P.S.

In Hebrews the writer refers to the "washings" of the OT. These "washings" were done through pouring water over those participating via the laver. Also, the term used by the writer of Hebrews for "washings" is "baptismos". In the KJV it is even translated, "baptisms". (Hebrews 6:2; Hebrews 9:10)

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Right. IIRC, this was debated a while back when Aquila said he used, or would use, a Red Solo cup to "baptize" someone.

Yes, I'm a radical. lol

If someone wants to be baptized, I'll seize the moment.... even if all I have is a Dixie cup! LOL