Your tithes were already paid.

[Russ Kelly]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If this is the same Bro. Kelly who has many you tube videos on tithing, I commend your studies and I also agree. I enjoy dialogue on the biblical accuracy of things, but the problem with many of these threads is they become mean, demeaning and sarcastic (biblical accuracy becomes a weapon).

I don't believe in mandatory tithing. I think that tithing is a good system adapted from the Old Testament. The church has grown and is more orthodox than the early church was in Jerusalem. People are responsible to the work of God in giving financial support. That is definite.

We are to be Spirit led givers. Did Jesus not command us to go beyond the laws commands? (see Mathew 5) The Spirit doesn't drive us to live minimally, but abundantly. A person should commit financially to God and tithing is a good way to do it. It should not be a legalism under the law, but a commitment to furthering the kingdom of God. The amount is not the issue it is the heart.

Yes, I wrote my PHD dissertation on tithing. Jesus, Moses, Nehemiah and Malachi all taught that the tithe was only food. The argument that we should give above and beyond what the law required sounds good, but it has no precedent in the law. Why? The law never required non-food producers such as carpenters or tentmakers (or even fishermen) to tithe. Again, there is no precedent to build the argument upon.

Jesus gave sacrificially; Jesus is our New Covenant example. Most church members spend more on their IPOD and Internet than they give at church. That is a shame.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

Yes, I wrote my PHD dissertation on tithing. Jesus, Moses, Nehemiah and Malachi all taught that the tithe was only food. The argument that we should give above and beyond what the law required sounds good, but it has no precedent in the law. Why? The law never required non-food producers such as carpenters or tentmakers (or even fishermen) to tithe. Again, there is no precedent to build the argument upon.

Jesus gave sacrificially; Jesus is our New Covenant example. Most church members spend more on their IPOD and Internet than they give at church. That is a shame.

Russ,

I will not argue with you and of this turns ugly by you or anyone else I will bow out once again. You said you wrote a PhD dissertation on tithing. First congratulations! I know it is hard work! With that said I feel like I could easily write a PhD dissertation on tithing as well based on the research I have done.

You said that tithing was always food. You imply that tithing on monetary items sounds good but has no precedent. Then you ask why?

You followup with the observation that church members spend more on themselves than they do the church and that it is a shame.

I don't recall anyone here calling anyone who does not believe in tithing any names and I will not start. However, that cannot be said about the other side of this coin (pun intended). I do want to say I appreciate the post. I have no problem discussing any issue in an adult manner.

I agree with what you have said:
1) "Moses, Nehemiah and Malachi all taught that the tithe was only food".
2) The law never required non-food producers... to tithe.

I disagree with this:
There is no precedent to build the argument upon - speaking of monetary tithing I believe.

I would like to address your question if that is okay with you. You may disagree but hopefully we are not disagreeable in that disagreement.


I have studied tithing in ancient history. I do not have the ability at this time to document my assertions right now but will later if asked. I assume most of this will be familiar toy you anyway.

It seems to me that the biggest issue against tithing is the Law. Since Calvary we are not under the Law therefore tithing should not be part of the NT church. I disagree with this premise. I have asked when did tithing start? Truly there is no answer because we do not know exactly when. I have searched and have an opinion about this. If tithes predated the Law then how can the Law end something that existed previously? It seems to me that the premise is flawed.

A quick note on Abraham:
(Gen 14:20 KJV) And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

if I understood you correctly you said there is no precedent about tithing monetarily. The verse above would indicate otherwise. Tithes were given of all the spoils. This is in keeping with secular history. Most nations, if not all, tithed to their deities. The question I ask myself is why? Why is it ALWAYS 10%. Why not some other number. IMO this is indicative of a common source. I cannot prove this but do believe it. Just as I believe ancient flood stories refer to Noah's flood. These ancient civilization gave 10% of all to their deities. This included gold and silver. So there IS a precedent.

I believe Cain and Able have more to do with tithing than anything else. The LXX seems to affirm this. FTR this is an opinion. other ancient commentators seem to agree with this assessment as well. This would certainly explain why all those other cultures practiced the same thing. IMO they would have carried the practice with them after the Tower of Babel. I cannot prove this but it makes sense to me and I tend to believe it this way. That means tithing was an essential feature since the dawn of man. It would not stop at Calvary.

Concerning the question about food stuffs. There was no such thing as currency until the very end of the OT. This is why when we read about transactions we read about the weight of silver or gold - a shekels weight for example. Currency began with coins but again this was the very end of the OT. It would not make sense to have a law about something that would not exist for another thousand years or more.

This leaves a principle and whether or not we accept the principle or reject it. I accept it but have to get back to work now so hopefully this will provide enough of an answer to provide some food (pun intended) for thought.

Take Care

[Esaias]

FINALLY we might get into some scriptural documentation regarding WHAT and HOW tithing was and was done in the Bible.

Phew, my face was starting to turn blue waiting for SOMEBODY address the issue from the pro-tithing side.

As for name calling, most who resort to character attacks are showing they do not understand the issue, regardless of whattside they are on.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You go ahead and live how you want. Where a man's treasure is that is where his heart will be. I gladly tithe and will continue to, not because I have to, but because I want to. I believe tithing is a principle, not a law, and it worked before the law, during the law, and after the law. I am happy to give God what is already His.

Why would you want to waste your energy trying to convince people NOT to give???

First accusation against the non-tithers

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Tithes were given of all the spoils. This is in keeping with secular history. Most nations, if not all, tithed to their deities. The question I ask myself is why? Why is it ALWAYS 10%. Why not some other number. IMO this is indicative of a common source. I cannot prove this but do believe it. Just as I believe ancient flood stories refer to Noah's flood. These ancient civilization gave 10% of all to their deities. This included gold and silver. So there IS a precedent.

It hasn’t not always been ten percent. If anyone here believes that Abram’s tenth given to Melchizedek represents an eternal principal of tithing, then God compromised His eternal principal in Number 31: 25-31 (see below). If Abraham were following a universal principle of tithing when he gave Melchizedek a tenth from the spoils of war, then God would have commanded the people in Numbers 31 to follow suit.

Numbers 31:25-31
25 The LORD said to Moses,
26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured.
27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community.
28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep.
29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD’s part.
30 From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD’s tabernacle.”
31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

It hasn’t not always been ten percent. If anyone here believes that Abram’s tenth given to Melchizedek represents an eternal principal of tithing, then God compromised His eternal principal in Number 31: 25-31 (see below). If Abraham were following a universal principle of tithing when he gave Melchizedek a tenth from the spoils of war, then God would have commanded the people in Numbers 31 to follow suit.

Numbers 31:25-31
25 The LORD said to Moses,
26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured.
27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community.
28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep.
29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD’s part.
30 From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD’s tabernacle.”
31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses

Perhaps I was not clear. Thank you for the scripture. I will have to look into sometime. I am currently extremely busy right now. I am writing my own thesis and preaching and teaching and working a full time job.

My reference to always 10% is to ancient civilizations. They were always just that, a tithe.

IMO You cannot say God compromised His eternal principle based upon an anomaly.


Edited to add:
Based upon the passage we cannot determine whether 10% of the spoils went to God. You would have to know exactly how many people went to war and how many stayed home. No doubt there were more, many more, that stayed home and they gave 2% (V. 30). The sum total could still equal 10% of the total spoils.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Perhaps I was not clear. Thank you for the scripture. I will have to look into sometime. I am currently extremely busy right now. I am writing my own thesis and preaching and teaching and working a full time job.

My reference to always 10% is to ancient civilizations. They were always just that, a tithe.

IMO You cannot say God compromised His eternal principle based upon an anomaly.

Please give us a verse, stating tithing is an "eternal moral principle".

You will shut us all down with that verse, if it exists.

All tithe teachers say that, now produce the verse and win the argument.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Perhaps I was not clear. Thank you for the scripture. I will have to look into sometime. I am currently extremely busy right now. I am writing my own thesis and preaching and teaching and working a full time job.

My reference to always 10% is to ancient civilizations. They were always just that, a tithe.

IMO You cannot say God compromised His eternal principle based upon an anomaly.

Not everyone tithed Bro. It's that simple. There is no eternal moral principle.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Sean

Please give us a verse, stating tithing is an "eternal moral principle".

You will shut us all down with that verse, if it exists.

All tithe teachers say that, now produce the verse and win the argument.

Biblical Principles are not always stated as "thus saith the Lord". That does not invalidate them when they exist. The Levites were to teach the Israelite's to discern the difference between the clean and the unclean.

(Deu 17:8 KJV) If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
(Deu 17:9 KJV) And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
(Deu 17:10 KJV) And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:

The Lord made provision for this because the bible is not an exhaustive book of do's and don'ts.

So back to you. Give me a verse that states tithing ceased. You will shut this all down if that verse exists. All the non-tithe teachers imply it so now produce the verse and win the argument.


You see both camps are basing a teaching upon a principle that is not specifically spelled out.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Rudy

Not everyone tithed Bro. It's that simple. There is no eternal moral principle.

I disagree with you about the principle.
I agree that not everyone tithed. Not everyone lived for God even after they left Egypt.