Billy Graham

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by JoeBandy

I am just pointing out scriptures . You are the expert into forming them into meaning what you want them to.

Joe get back to work.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by JoeBandy

Someone brought Mathew 7:14 into this discussion.. So lets bring Mathew 7:16-19 into it!!

Those are good scriptures.
Which begs the question: Just what is "good fruit"?

In Genesis, God said: "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed,
and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon
the earth: and it was so." Without the gospel, whose seed does a man bear
and what seed is he yielding? Is it the seed of the herb (the corruptible seed
that is to be burned); or of the incorruptible seed,"...that lives and abides
forever...": which is begotten/conceived by the Holy Spirit?

Again the Lord speaks, in Matt 7:21-23, saying that there are those who will
be cast away although they do "...prophesy...cast out demons...and do many
wonderful works..." in His NAME!
So why are they called "...workers of iniquity..."? Because iniquity corresponds
to KNOWING to do good, and rejecting to do it ! And just where did the workers
of iniquity REJECT to do good?

Ask me and I will tell you.

Brother Villa

[aegsm76]

What an amazing thread.
It seems some people are ok proclaiming that we have the "true" gospel, until pointing out that their favorite "mainstream" religious personalities are going to hell.
Either we have the truth or we do not.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

What an amazing thread.
It seems some people are ok proclaiming that we have the "true" gospel, until pointing out that their favorite "mainstream" religious personalities are going to hell.
Either we have the truth or we do not.

You nailed it

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You nailed it

Actually, that didn't nail it. Billy Graham wasn't necessarily my favorite religious personality. In in all honesty, with regards to those outside of our movement, I'd have to say mine favorite religious personalities in the mainstream are the late R.C. Sproul, John Piper, Rod Parsley, T.D. Jakes, George Barna, Wolfgang Simson, Neil Cole, and Perry Stone. lol I don't always agree with everything they believe... but I tend to enjoy hearing or reading what they have to say. lol

I'll admit, I hope they make it. But, unless they obey Acts 2:38, I can't ever say they made it with any real certainty. May God have mercy.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Actually, that didn't nail it. Billy Graham wasn't necessarily my favorite religious personality. In in all honesty, with regards to those outside of our movement, I'd have to say mine favorite religious personalities in the mainstream are the late R.C. Sproul, John Piper, Rod Parsley, T.D. Jakes, George Barna, Wolfgang Simson, Neil Cole, and Perry Stone. lol I don't always agree with everything they believe... but I tend to enjoy hearing or reading what they have to say. lol

I'll admit, I hope they make it. But, unless they obey Acts 2:38, I can't ever say they made it with any real certainty. May God have mercy.

Aegsm76 did nail it, prove’em wrong.
The dead are just that dead. God’s sovereignty has zero to do with allowing blind guides through the strait gate.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Aegsm76 did nail it, prove’em wrong.
The dead are just that dead. God’s sovereignty has zero to do with allowing blind guides through the strait gate.

What does it mean, to be "sovereign"???

[Aquila]

CONTINUED...

Wow, then you're a better man than the Apostle Paul. Galatians 1:6-9

I am astonished how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to corrupt the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse! As we have said before, even now I say again: If anyone is preaching a gospel to you contrary to what you received, let him be accursed!

Before we go any further with your statement here, let's ask ourselves an important question.

What is the Gospel???

Gospel means, "Good News". Generally speaking, the term Gospel is used to describe the entire story of Christ's life. It is also used to denote Christ's teachings. But what is it more specifically according to Paul himself? Let's see...

1 Corinthians 15:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

The "Gospel" is how Christ died for our sin, was buried, and that He rose again on the third day. THAT is the Gospel, the "Good News". Now, there are over 41,000 Christian denominations. All who believe in the truth of Scripture will testify that Christ died for our sin, was buried, and rose again on the third day. Where they differ isn't necessarily rooted in some denial of the Gospel, but rather in their application of the Gospel. So, let me ask you this... did Billy Graham believe in and teach that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on the third day? YES! So, Billy didn't believe in another "Gospel", Billy just didn't know how to properly apply that Gospel as the Apostles did. So, the notion that Graham taught "another Gospel" can be dismissed. We can agree on the fact that Billy Graham didn't know how to properly apply that Gospel in its fullness.

Chris, I do believe the Apostle Paul would call you anathema. Because you are teaching another Gospel.

Of course you do, dear brother. In fact, every time I've spoken to you or read your interactions with others, anyone who doesn't agree with you is anathema. lol Therefore, when you make this charge, it kinda loses its meaning.

Here's a question.

Did "Acts 2:38" or the "Apostolic Movement" die for you and me? Was it buried? Did it rise again on the third day according to Scripture? Do we worship a verse of Scripture? Do we sing praises to a movement? NO! It's all about JESUS. Only Jesus died for us, was buried, and arose in the third day. If we teach that anything other than the Gospel being Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, we're teaching another Gospel. Since you dismiss that this work of Christ is the Gospel, holding to the notion that Acts 2:38 is the Gospel, I woefully have to inform you that YOU teach another Gospel.

Paul NEVER taught what you are proposing here?

According to Paul, the Gospel is the atoning death, burial, and resurrection of Christ:

1 Corinthians 15:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

That you can be flipping rosary beads praying to a statue of what you may believe to be of Jesus?

Does the Bible forbid "prayer journals"? Does it forbid "buildings"? Does the Bible forbid "pews"? Does the Bible forbid "offering plates"? Does the Bible forbid "steeples"? Does the Bible forbid "crosses" upon those steeples? Does the Bible forbid "white collars"? Does the Bible forbid "robes"? No. Those are just modern innovations designed to assist us in regards to our faith in some way, shape, or form. In ancient times the number of illiterate people was quite high. Then add on the fact that many who could read couldn't read Greek or Latin. In addition, Bibles were hand written by Scribes until the printing press, making ownership of a Bible an extremely rare occurrence. As a result, icons, statutes, paintings, etc. depicting Jesus, the Apostles, and events recorded in Scripture, were used to communicate the Gospel. For those who didn't own Bibles, these were as cherished as the Scriptures themselves. Essentially, these images were their Bible. And they felt the same awe, reverence, and ecstasy upon gazing at these things as we do when we saddle up with a cup of coffee and read our Bibles in the morning. We're so blessed. We have Bibles. We can read. We're even allowed to read the Scriptures. And instead of being thankful and humbled by this, having mercy and understanding towards those who related to the faith through images on account of not being so blessed... we condemn them. Now, I will agree with you in that as time progressed these apostate institutions began attributing mythological meaning and near idolatrous veneration of these items. But we'd have to look deep into the heart of every individual venerating such an item. Are they venerating the individual or truth artistically depicted... or are they venerating the actual item? That is where the dividing line between true spiritual reverence and idolatry would lie. Consider for a moment the tapestries of the Tabernacle and how upon those tapestries the Cherubim and Seraphim were depicted. Imagine how there were golden statues of Cherubim crafted upon the mercy seat of the ark itself. Consider how these images appeared upon the walls of the Temple. Artistic depictions of the spiritual realities of our faith are not forbidden. Take a look at children's Bibles and the pictures depicting various Biblical stories and truths are found throughout. I still remember the pictures I reverenced in my most cherished children's Bible when I was a child. Jumping to the accusation of idolatry is important as a cautionary measure. But to do so in blanket condemnation without thorough consideration of circumstance is unwarranted.

Prayer beads... *eye roll*. Ancient Christians recited prayers, much like those recited in synagogues. They felt the need to count those prayers and originally, prayer beads were a means of counting. It was just a tool, like a prayer journal is a tool to help us record, track, and reflect on our prayers today. They also used stones, sticks, and other means to count their prayers. Of course, I believe that this practice evolved into a superstitious observance. But again, many were illiterate. When praying these prayers and approaching a specific bead, they'd reflect on the truth of a given story in Scripture relating to Christ's passion or Christ's life. As alien as it might seem to us who are privileged to own a Bible and be a part of a church that encourages personal prayer... it was a tool to count prayers and to recall the truths of Scripture. While prayer beads are a practice I personally would never engage in... I'm hesitant to offer a blanket condemnation on an ancient people who might have used them. Now, I will condemn the superstition that they've evolved into among those traditional Christians today. The vain repetition of prayer doesn't earn any kind of "points" or "indulgence" as taught by most of these apostate churches. And as a result, I would encourage any Christian alive today to read the Bible and pray from the heart, not from a script or in effort to gain heavenly "points" towards salvation.

So, my position here is nuanced based on my studies on the topic. Icons and prayer beads? Sure, for the illiterate of the early church, fine. But for modern Christians? Unnecessary. To gain points towards heaven? Nope. To venerate any inherent divinity in the icon or statue itself? NOPE. I'd admonish the modern Christian to put away these childish things.

Yet, still make heaven because of some unknown reasons? Sad, Chris your doctrine is false hope.

God's glory and desire to have mercy is not an unknown thing.

TO BE CONTINUED...

[Aquila]

CONTINUED...

REALLY? Wait, please forgive me in advance. Seriously no offense. There was an old sister 97 who was in my Bible studies years ago in the city of Fort Lauderdale. She knew her Bible, she understood the scripture, and had some awesome revelations. There was a Baptist preacher who wanted to interrupt the Bible study and started to present his easy believism. Again, no offense, but he made the statement close to the one you posted in the above quote. The old sister always let me handle the Trinitarian troublemakers. But this time she surprised me. She looked him dead in the eyes and told him, "son, If you have a simple, and imperfect understanding of the Bible, then shut up, and sit down and learn something. Because if your brain moved as fast as your mouth you be getting somewhere!" Brother, telling a group that you don't know what you are talking about after you argue with them with 15 or more posts, really doesn't help the argument. All it does, is raise eyebrows, and send eyes rolling.

LOL! She sounds like an awesome lady! I'm sure you guys got a chuckle out of her tenacity and zeal for the truth. There is no room for trouble makers in a Bible study, Trinitarian or Oneness. I tip my hat to her.

I'm reminded of Cornelius and Apollos.

Cornelius was a devout Jewish convert whose prayers and charity had appeared as a memorial before God. Praise God, an angel was sent to him in a vision, admonishing that he seek out Peter that he might learn greater truth.

Apollos was a Jew who was mighty in the Scriptures. And he spoke and taught about Jesus diligently. However, he only understood repentance. In fact, he was even baptized by John. This man put his life in danger, bolding proclaiming the truth of Jesus in the synagogue! What a guy! And when Aquila and Priscilla heard this man that took him in and expounded the way of God more perfectly.

In both cases, these two individuals needing greater truth were humble enough to receive it. When one demonstrates no interest in receiving greater truth, I don't see any reason to waste time with them. The only thing that will help them is prayer and God's prevenient grace which will open their eyes to their need for greater truth. In in full agreement with shutting down the Baptist troublemaker in the Bible study you described. He certainly didn't have a hunger for more truth. At least, based on this part of the story, it doesn't seem like he did. Whoever that older woman is, she's precious. Her zeal and tenacity should be applauded.

No, in plain English you are being wishy washy, and dealing with the fear factor of your own emotions.

Maybe I am. I'm not perfect and I won't assume that you're automatically wrong. Please pray for me, so that if this is true, perhaps God might help me grow into the place he desires me to be in.

I don't see it as wishy washy. I see it like this. I was born again at an Apostolic altar at 13 years old. Prior to that, my home was primarily Baptist/Quaker. It wasn't until my mom received the Holy Ghost when I was 12 that I was exposed the Apostolic Pentecostal truth. But I remember being 7 and 8, reading my children's Bible. Going to Sunday school (Linden Ave. Baptist Church, Dayton Ohio). I remember praying and feeling the love of Jesus. I remember how I was told that God was a father to the fatherless (I was being raised in a single parent home). I remember Jesus speaking to me as clear as day as a child. In fact, several times I was asked to share what Jesus told me. And I remember what it was like to hunger for more... but not knowing what it was that I was hungry for. And it wasn't until I was 13 that I experienced the fullness of that Apostolic salvation, just like the Bible says. And Jesus became even more alive to me. Before, my relationship with Him was beautiful, but it was black and white. After being filled with the Spirt and baptized in His name, that relationship took on living color. Some are still in that black and white phase with Jesus... and they think that is all there is. Let's face it... Apostolics have kept a low profile and no one really knows what we have to offer unless they here distortions of it through our critics.

I'm 42 now. Life has been quite a ride for me. I'm in no position to judge anyone. I'm in desperate need of God's grace and forgiveness, as much, if not more than anyone else. I've done things in my life, terrible things. Things that haunt me. Things I'd not dare share to a human soul, because most that I've opened up to can't understand. I've discovered that many struggle with understanding unless they've been there. I have so much that I owe God. I've screwed up so badly, I don't know how my faith remains as intact as it is. If I were God, I would have written me off long ago. And for that... I want to be merciful. I need His mercy. I'd rather stand before Him and be judged for being too loving, too merciful, too "wishy washy"... than risk being judged as not loving, merciful, or kind enough. I'm the sap that wants to think as many as possible are going to Heaven, even though deep in my heart I know the numbers will be fewer than I'd like.

Yes, my emotions are a part of who I am. And yes, they even shape many of the things I do, believe, and say. I don't deny that. However, I know men who say that their emotions don't effect their faith... but they are just as emotionally driven in their hardness and pride as I am my "wishy washy-ness". The biggest difference is that I'm honest about my emotions playing a part in my perspective. To me, faith without emotion is a faith without a heart.

Perhaps you might not understand this... seeing that your emotions clearly never play a part in your faith, approach to topics, or individuals.

Nicer than Jesus, Better than Paul, all because of unrepented sin in one's life? Worried if you don't allow the dead to get a second roll at the dice may cause you to lose a turn when God invites you to play some celestial Monopoly? You want that get out of Hell free card? This is where the First Church of NPR become the church where everything is nice. Come a sinner, stay a sinner, and leave a sinner. God loves you just the way you are and wants you to stay just the way you are. sad.

God does love us just the way we are. He loved us all while we were yet sinners. The question of God's love is often misconstrued. Many feel that God doesn't or cannot love them based on their current condition, sin, struggle, etc. We can assure them that isn't true. God does LOVE them as they are. God will always love them, no matter what they've done. For God so loved the entire world... every sinner that ever lived... that He gave His only begotten Son. His love and His mercy endures forever. However, when that love and mercy is experienced... it changes you. Now, I don't mean it motivates you to engage in some carnal effort of behavior modification in accordance to some religious legalism. It changes you in that it transforms the soul. One will grow in Christlikeness. They will grow in grace and mercy themselves. Perfection will be attained as part of the process of sanctification as they surrender to the Spirit of God abiding in the core of their being. Eh, I can tell them to dress right... and they do it... but at that point they've only done it for me, not for Jesus... not because modesty itself is an inherent reality of their identity. I believe that God's everlasting love and grace is transformative. He'll never leave you as you are. If you keep prayerful, keep seeking to follow the Spirit, keep seeking to reflect Jesus in all you are... because of His grace and mercy... you'll be transformed into His likeness. And... you can know that while you might not be everything you desire to be at the moment... you are not the person you were before Jesus. And you can also know that God loves you not predicated on exactly who you are right now... but based on what you will be... in Him.

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

[Amanah]

Chris, we appreciate your posts, your thoughtfulness and your intelligence, even when we don't agree on all things.

Love and prayers to your and your family brother