Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

[Praxeas]

ABC Women's Institute, September 19, 1997

God commands all Christian women to be silent and not to teach men - or does he?

1Tim. 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Why this couldn't be a command for all Christian people through all time!

Questions to ask when confronted by difficult texts:

1. To whom was this epistle written?

2. What was the purpose of this epistle?

3. How does what Paul says in the verse relative to a woman teaching comport with what is said elsewhere in the New Testament?

4. What is said about women teaching, preaching or prophesying in other places in scripture?

1. Adam and Eve, in the beginning, were given equal responsibility. Genesis Gen. 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

2. Jesus used the ideal conditions that existed in the beginning to give a new testament command. Matt. 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Matt. 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Matt. 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

3. There is no time in scripture when women were forbidden to teach, preach or prophecy. God used women in all ages including but not limited to New Testament times. Old Testament Women who prophesied - Miriam - Numbers 26:59, 1Chron 5:29 ; Sarah - Genesis 21:10 cf Galatians 4:30 ; Deborah - Judges 4:4-6, Judges 5:1,7, 12, 13, 31 ; Huldah - 2Kings 22:14-20 ; Noadiah Neh 6:14 Etc. In addition to this the Old Testament forsees the Christian time when daughters would prophecy - Joel 2:28,29. And this in spite of the fact that the world was fallen and that the prediction of Genesis 3:16 had come to pass. Still, God used women. Why, then, should Christian women put interdicted?

1 Tim 2:1-15

Women forbidden to teach men? Women to keep silence?

1Tim. 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (why would Paul want to limit God's messengers to men only when he wants all the world to be saved?) 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (Paul is opposing the most radical feminism the world has ever seen. In Ephesus, many women believed that only a woman, because of her position as child-bearer<= could communicate ultimate truth. A woman was the sole interpreter. Many also believed that the woman was the originator of man, that she was the authentic one [authentein]) 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting (wrathful passion and dialogismos, dispute) .

9 In like manner also, that women (pray with uplifted hands) adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety (modesty and good sense); not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; (women retained one slave to arrange their hair while a second stood by with a whip to lash the unfortunate beautician - Juvenal, p. 75 of Kroeger - Apuleius considered braids seductive. Ostentation in dress was considered a sign of promiscuity in the ancient world)

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness (professing means witnessing) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn (Rabbi's forbid women to learn) in silence (The Rabbinic scholar was required to learn in silence - based upon Zech 2:13, Hab 2:20, Isa. 41:1,, were required to “be still” Ps 46:10. Rabbi Isaac said, “What should be a man's pursuit in this world? He should be silent. Silence was the duty of the learner. Silence and submission is a Near Eastern formula implying willingness to heed and obey instruction. The original appliication is one of attentiveness and receptivity to God. The command that women should learn is marked contrast to the foolish women, 1 tim 3:6,7, who are ever learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Paul would arm women with truth so that they might stand against error. Why would any true proclaimer of the gospel ever restrict who may learn or who might teach. Paul's concerns are for peace, propriety and a knowledge of the truth.) with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (Paul attacks a highly unorthodox myth involving Adam, Eve, and the serpent) 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in (Paul defends feminine functions. dia, - during, throughout, within an attendant circumstance, while still possessing that function that most sets her apart from man) childbearing, if they (they, women and all Christians) continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Did Paul believe that no woman should teach? May this scripture be used to teach a doctrine which is contradicted elsewhere?

Women prophesied. It was predicted that they would. Joel 2:28; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, They did! Acts 2:17 your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,...

Paul allowed prophecy from women 1Cor 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Prophecy is speaking to “edification [teaching or building up], exhortation and comfort.” 1Cor. 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

Old Testament women prophesied, Deborah, Esther, Jael, Sarah (Genesis 21:The New Testament would not reduce the abilities of women to participate. The New Testament in which women as well as men were filled with the Spirit would not reduce women's opportunitites to participate.

Women taught under Paul's ministry, Acts 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. 1Cor. 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Even the Old Testament allowed women to learn, Deut. 31:12 Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law:

Both Paul and Jesus allowed women to learn, Luke 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

Conclusion: If Paul does not want some women to teach, it is not because they are women, but rather because they are unlearned, incompetent, or are teaching error. If the church should bar all incompetent teachers, it would have to bar men who teach that women should not teach.

Continued.....

[Praxeas]

Evidence of Conflict and false doctrine in Ephesus according to the Pastorals

The problem was not that women were teaching. The problem was in regard to what they were teaching!

Ephesus was the seat of the greatest false teachings in the history of the earth!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

1Tim. 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, 4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

1Tim. 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1Tim. 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained. 7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. 9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

1Tim. 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

1Tim. 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

2Tim. 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; 4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy; 5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. 6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. 15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

2Tim. 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

2Tim. 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

2Tim. 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

2Tim. 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

2Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Titus 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. 10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; 11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

[Monarchianism]

Prax ! ( Being Serious ) I almost had a revelation.
Never have I ever understood this one.
( Even though I was for them preaching )

I'm lacking because I skimmed through it.
I will piece it together!

[Monarchianism]

Prax, could you refer me to the site(s) you are using?
I wasn't aware of the Talmud teachings such doctrines!
Is there anymore on I Timothy 2:12-14? Could you elaborate?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I did a little further research on what a declension is and here is what I found:

Nouns or pronouns that end in different endings tell us something about the noun. For example apple and apples: the different ending tells us whether it is plural. That different ending is called a declension. Most every language has a plural and singular declension. However, some languages also have a masculine and feminine declension. The accent or lack of accent is the masculine/feminine declension for the Greek name Junias/Junia and makes the name into Junias with the accent or Junia without the accent.

Check out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension

So basically it seems rdp really didn't understand what a declension was enough to answer that what you were referencing was a declension OR he just wanted to thump his chest at your ignorance since you was talking about a declension but didn't know it was one.

Too funny! I've been out of town & more importantly, do not have the time to sit here & handle every copy & paste job's "argument" for pages on end. As I've repeatedly said, get the 566 pg. book, written by some of the gretest Greek scholars alive & then come talk to me...if you can still pick up your heads!

Sad how you folks fight the Word of God you claim to embrace???

O' & BTW Prax....For about the 5th time now, Daniel Wallace has explicitly indicated to me personally via email [which I still have] that he absolutely rejects "women preacher's" based upon the clear witness of I Tim. 2:11-15 & I Cor. 14:34...which I hope you learn to obey one day! In fact, he's the one who told me about the book. You folks would do well to repent of your unbiblical doctrines.....

[Sister Alvear]

WOW..Are you mad?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by rdp

Too funny! I've been out of town & more importantly, do not have the time to sit here & handle every copy & paste job's "argument" for pages on end. As I've repeatedly said, get the 566 pg. book, written by some of the gretest Greek scholars alive & then come talk to me...if you can still pick up your heads!

Sad how you folks fight the Word of God you claim to embrace???

O' & BTW Prax....For about the 5th time now, Daniel Wallace has explicitly indicated to me personally via email [which I still have] that he absolutely rejects "women preacher's" based upon the clear witness of I Tim. 2:11-15 & I Cor. 14:34...which I hope you learn to obey one day! In fact, he's the one who told me about the book. You folks would do well to repent of your unbiblical doctrines.....

I don't use copy and paste jobs and I don't keep on redirecting others to some book with apparently outdated information. I have provided ample evidence for my claim that scholars changed their position on the Junia/Junias issue around 2000. I even went one step further and explained why some of your stronger points of evidence for Junias have been rejected. So if you don't believe me then the best I can tell you is to go a search out this issue on your own and to use up to date information sources while doing it (sources within the last 5 or so years).

[rdp]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I don't use copy and paste jobs and I don't keep on redirecting others to some book with apparently outdated information. I have provided ample evidence for my claim that scholars changed their position on the Junia/Junias issue around 2000. I even went one step further and explained why some of your stronger points of evidence for Junias have been rejected. So if you don't believe me then the best I can tell you is to go a search out this issue on your own and to use up to date information sources while doing it (sources within the last 5 or so years).

This is just so ridiculous. Even if Junias was a lady [& it can never be proven he/she was], it simply says this person was "of note among the apostles". How in the world can you get that he/she was one of "the apostles" [note the definite article] from this???? Strange that his/her name is missing in Acts 1!! This is nuts.....

The book that I refer to is one of the most informative in existence & is based upon the latest Greek manuscripts that we have [after the great papyrological finds in Egypt of the late 1800's]. According to your line of reasoning, we'll have to recycle our resources every 5 years or so??? Absurd.

Praxeas' statements above are ridiculously full of unbiblical interpolations in I Tim. 2:11-15. Instead of a "Monologue Hermeneutic" [the text speaks for itself] he employs a "Dialogue Hemeneutic" [he speaks back into the text]. No wonder you guys believe in "women preacher's"!

Round & Round she goes....too busy for this non-sense, repent & believe the Bible.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by rdp

This is just so ridiculous. Even if Junias was a lady [& it can never be proven he/she was], it simply says this person was "of note among the apostles". How in the world can you get that he/she was one of "the apostles" [note the definite article] from this???? Strange that his/her name is missing in Acts 1!! This is nuts.....

The book that I refer to is one of the most informative in existence & is based upon the latest Greek manuscripts that we have [after the great papyrological finds in Egypt of the late 1800's]. According to your line of reasoning, we'll have to recycle our resources every 5 years or so??? Absurd.

Praxeas' statements above are ridiculously full of unbiblical interpolations in I Tim. 2:11-15. Instead of a "Monologue Hermeneutic" [the text speaks for itself] he employs a "Dialogue Hemeneutic" [he speaks back into the text]. No wonder you guys believe in "women preacher's"!

Round & Round she goes....too busy for this non-sense, repent & believe the Bible.

rdp, you were the one that started getting onto me for using the "outdated" KJV rendering of Junia. So it's only fair that I brought up that your source and it's major arguments were also outdated.

As far as recycling resources every few years... that's a very standard practice in academic circles when new evidence comes to light. Some works will last for decades and decades while others will be outdated in the matter of a year. So it is important to be aware that new sources can at anytime make an old source obsolete. I'm not even saying you have to keep track of the newer sources, I'm just saying that if someone claims there is a newer one that you should look into whether there is.

As far as whether it matters if Junia was a woman or a man, I think it does matter to you. You are the one that argued with me for days that she was a man and that your source proved it. So why do I think it matters to you, because if Junia was a woman then it leaves open the possibility that a woman was called an apostle and while her being called one still wouldn't prove she was in church leadership over men it does allow the possibility.

Of course all this brings us to the idea of proof. You had no problem claiming that your source proved Junia was a man (of course all you had was evidence). But now that I'm claiming new sources prove she was a woman you take a stance that it cannot be absolutely proven because all I have is evidence. That's such a cop-out. But to make it easier on you. I'll only ask you to consider the facts I presented and unbiasedly draw your own conclusions as to whether Junia was a man or a woman.

[Sister Alvear]

That´s the way it goes....