Homosexuality Or Legalism--Which Is Worse?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

This thread is DUMB

You're just jealous because your nick does not start with P

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You're just jealous because your nick does not start with P

Which reminds me, where is PP?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You're just jealous because your nick does not start with P

Yeah really! Who are those other guys?

[MrsMcD]

Originally Posted by Amos

On another thread, tv1a and RandyWayne are promoting the idea that legalism is worse and more difficult to overcome than homosexuality.

What say ye?

I wouldn't know.

[RandyWayne]

I have no idea why I am given partial credit for starting this thread other then answering a question on another topic.... I think the question itself is a bit nonsensical, although maybe just a LITTLE interesting. Amazed it turned into this many pages!

I can think of MUCH more profound comparisons such as "Who is worse? Legalism or Ted Kennedy?" or fill in the blank with any far-left lib. I actually think there is MUCH more comparison (based on ultimate motive) between the two.

[RandyWayne]

Legalism has always been defined as "trying to earn salvation..." The opposite of trying to earn salvation is to receive salvation as a gift.

And it is far more then trying to earn salvation. The thing about legalism that made Jesus toss His tables was the pride and control inherent in those engaged in it. Maybe this is something reserved for the leaders of those engaged in legalism versus those who practice it as church members, but the fact remains that a legalist will pray "Thank you for not making me like <the guy who doesn't follow the fill-in-the-blank rule>." The legalist will also have the undermining motive of using legalism as a means of control. How better to keep a flock under control then to have a series of specific issues to preach against? And THEN to preach fear into their hearts that if they disobey the leader, the unspeakable will happen.

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

And it is far more then trying to earn salvation. The thing about legalism that made Jesus toss His tables was the pride and control inherent in those engaged in it. Maybe this is something reserved for the leaders of those engaged in legalism versus those who practice it as church members, but the fact remains that a legalist will pray "Thank you for not making me like <the guy who doesn't follow the fill-in-the-blank rule>." The legalist will also have the undermining motive of using legalism as a means of control. How better to keep a flock under control then to have a series of specific issues to preach against? And THEN to preach fear into their hearts that if they disobey the leader, the unspeakable will happen.

I spent months leading a congregation who had been controlled and manipulated by legalism for years out of a Toxic Faith environment into a Healthy Faith environment. After going through this process and coming to an understanding of what it means to be saved by grace through faith, folks would say to me, "I can't believe that I allowed someone to have so much control over my life as that. What was wrong with me?"

In all fairness, I have to say that I am just as concerned for those people who come out of legalism, only to end up casting off the restraints of the Holy Spirit's guidance. To do so is just as much a bondage as legalism.

I have always said, to be a legalist one doesn't need the Holy Ghost, one simply needs to know what the rules are and have the will to observe them. On the other hand, one doesn't need the Holy Ghost if they are simply going to do what they want to do. They need only follow the desires of their flesh. However, to live a life that reflects the very nature of God Himself, which we have become partaker of, one needs to walk in the Spirit and yield to the guidance the Spirit provides a born again believer. This produces a truly fruitful spiritual life that honors God and bears testimony to Jesus Christ, where He is glorified not man.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

Didn't take long to get YOUR attention! I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince someone who has no concept of the grace of God or what being born again is, what it means to be saved by grace through faith. An understanding of grace is extremely difficult for someone who has been indoctrinated in legalism. Unless there is a revelation of grace it is near impossible because it is do diametrically opposite of legalism.

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

I grew up in legalism. From what I have observed, probably more legalistic than you. I know what it is to live in constant fear of being lost based upon my own performance (or more accurately, lack of performance). I also know what it means to receive a revelation of grace and feel saved and secure in my relationship with the Lord for the first time in my life.

The simple response to your post is that no one believes, or repents, or lives a faithful life except the Spirit of God makes it possible. It does not begin with man saving himself and no one will endure unto the end and be saved by his own works. JESUS ALONE SAVES! Sorry, but TB cannot save TB! However, I can receive this free gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

You know, when I first joined a UPC church, the New Converts class - using the precursor to what became In My Father's House - had me memorize the following passage: Ephesians 2:8-10

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

That is the message that I preached for 20 years in the UPC before being told to go somewhere else. It is the message that I still believe today. I do find that there is a great deal of misunderstanding about this message within Apostolic circles. But this is what I have observed:

When I was kicked out - the "conservative holiness" guys who were against me were angry that I would not change a speaking schedule to accommodate one of their buddies who was in town with his secretary. Things went downhill for them from there.

One of the ministers who opposed me would later abandon his wife and children and run off with a biker chick. The senior pastor of that church (then running around 200) now pastors only his wife and daughter. The adulterous preacher is married to his secretary after having abandoned his wife and family.

The saints who left that church are scattered around town- those in Apostolic churches regularly hear messages like the ones I used to preach and are pastored by holiness minded men who preach, teach and live Ephesians 2.

My observations: "Legalism" does not promote holiness. Legalism does not stand the test of time. Legalism destroys homes, families and churches. Legalism is not the preferred message within Apostolic churches.

And finally: the free gift is always there. It was there when my brethren attacked me and threw me out. It was there when the biker chick showed up. It was there when the church fell apart. It was there when the families and marriages and ministries were lost. Those who have received the free gift stand faithful today. The legalists? They're legalists and miserable and alone today.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by tv1a

I may add unfortunately some of them are now homosexual.

None to my knowledge.

I was sharing a personal experience and not trying to unneccessarily generalize. These events really happened just as I described them. They are the sad artifacts of false religion - except those who escaped; they found victory and peace in Jesus Christ.

[tv1a]

I was referring to the last line in a general way so I could make a personal observation. I will voluntarily delete the post to avoid any misconception of my post... I apologize in advance...

Originally Posted by pelathais

None to my knowledge.

I was sharing a personal experience and not trying to unneccessarily generalize. These events really happened just as I described them. They are the sad artifacts of false religion - except those who escaped; they found victory and peace in Jesus Christ.