The Value of a Seminary Degree

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

A Bible College where you go away from the local Church and pay men to teach the Word seems sinful at least to me.

That is an interesting statement. Define why you would consider it a sin. Since sin is separation or disobedience to God.

[Michael The Disciple]

Simple. I believe I know the truth. I gladly share what I know for free. Why should anyone be charged to be taught the things of Jesus Christ? Did he go to each person he taught and ask for a required sum for what he taught? Did the Apostles pay him for the doctrine?

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Simple. I believe I know the truth. I gladly share what I know for free. Why should anyone be charged to be taught the things of Jesus Christ? Did he go to each person he taught and ask for a required sum for what he taught? Did the Apostles pay him for the doctrine?

Okay, I can't argue with your rationale...BUT how you believe it "should" be and being a sin are two separate issues.

You are correct that Jesus taught for free, but did He say you couldn't charge? I know the scripture freely you have been given...

Does God "freely" give when He asks you to lose your life for Him? Does He "freely" give when He says a tenth of your increase is His? Get my point?

How do you make it a sin?

[Michael The Disciple]

Apples and Oranges. Elders are in the Church to teach the truth. If they cannot teach it thereby forcing a believer out of the local body and to move somewhere and pay someone else to do the job seems like a real disgrace to such an "Elder or Pastor".

As far as money goes sure one can give to whom they want. But to charge before you will teach Gods word? I would like to see a New Testament example of it.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Simple. I believe I know the truth. I gladly share what I know for free. Why should anyone be charged to be taught the things of Jesus Christ? Did he go to each person he taught and ask for a required sum for what he taught? Did the Apostles pay him for the doctrine?

There are so many things wrong with this thread I don't even know where to start.

Why should anyone be charged to be taught the things of Jesus Christ? Having folks who make their living teaching a subject is not a bad thing. They are not teaching you the Gospel. Should some one teach Greek for free, Hebrew, writing, persuasion, etc.? You are paying for an education.

Seminary is not the same as Bible College. Unfortunately many Bible Colleges (UPC) have had people unqualified to teach the subjects they were teaching and were nothing more than men with experience behind a pulpit who everyone thought would be a great teacher. Being a preacher does not make you an educator, it does not qualify you to teach subjects that frankly you know little or nothing about. Just the other day on this forum there was a discussion about forgiveness and remission of sins being different. This is the kind of thing unqualified men teach. Some Bible Colleges and Seminaries have men and women qualified to teach. From these one does not learn what to think but how to think and are given the tools to research and learn for ones self.

I had to spend three years in law school after undergrad and pass a bar exam in order to practice law, and preachers expect to graduate high school and teach the Scripture. Why would someone think that ignorance is a great thing for a minister? Why wouldn't someone who expects to teach the Scripture want to know how to read it, interpret it and understand it?

The Apostle Paul was extremely educated. The revelations he received from God were built upon his education they didn't replace his education. The Scripture says to "Study to show thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth." Study is not reading, it’s not praying for revelations, it is putting the time in to learn. Only the most arrogant think there is nothing Seminary can teach them, personally I would never want to have a pastor who was so self absorbed that he would think that others couldn't teach him.

[Michael The Disciple]

By your way of thinking Paul would have told Timothy, Titus, and Luke to fill out an application and pay first. Then we will begin your training.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

By your way of thinking Paul would have told Timothy, Titus, and Luke to fill out an application and pay first. Then we will begin your training.

First, Paul mentored Timothy and Titus he wasn't their teacher. Second, Luke already had an education which he used to write the majority of the NT.

Where does this anti-education idea come from?

I don't think it is a coincidence that the vast majority of the NT was written by the men with the most education.

[gloryseeker]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

There are so many things wrong with this thread I don't even know where to start.

I loved your post because I think it really captures the essence of my original question. You are obviously well educated as it comes through in your ability to communicate in words and the structure of your thought. Yet, I probably couldn't disagree more with some of the points you made.

Why should anyone be charged to be taught the things of Jesus Christ? Having folks who make their living teaching a subject is not a bad thing. They are not teaching you the Gospel. Should some one teach Greek for free, Hebrew, writing, persuasion, etc.? You are paying for an education.

The above I agree with so I won't spend time on it.

Seminary is not the same as Bible College. Unfortunately many Bible Colleges (UPC) have had people unqualified to teach the subjects they were teaching and were nothing more than men with experience behind a pulpit who everyone thought would be a great teacher.

While the concept here is true, it is also true in any field of study. I am sure that during your time in law school that you came across teachers who understood law, but were not good teachers.

I like the old saying which seems to be true in many instances where speaking of higher education, "Those who can do, those who can't teach"

Being a preacher does not make you an educator, it does not qualify you to teach subjects that frankly you know little or nothing about.

You have two issues here. First of all a "preacher" is an educator. An educator by definition is, "a person or thing that educates, esp. a teacher, principal, or other person involved in planning or directing education." Therefore, if we decide to go to dinner and I suggest a restaurant that you have never heard of I have just "educated" you.

Everyone is a "educator" to some degree. Anytime anyone opens the Word of God, they are "educating" on a subject, principle, or truth.

Now, you also spoke of being "unqualified to teach subjects." This is a true statement, but it is also common sense. Unfortunately there are schools, seminaries, churches where people try to teach subjects they no nothing about.

If a person is "called" then revelation will come in the area they are called in. This was one of the big problems with William Branham. He tried to become a teacher when he wasn't called to be a teacher. It messed him up and his ministry.

Some Bible Colleges and Seminaries have men and women qualified to teach. From these one does not learn what to think but how to think and are given the tools to research and learn for ones self. [\quote]

To me this is fundamental problem because if the person teaching doesn't think right themselves then what they are going to show the student will be a wrong way of thinking.

If you look at the church as a whole, it has lost a lot of power. We are as the times of Eli where the light in the temple has grown dim. So the people who are teaching who are people who know how to operate in a church atmosphere where the power of God is not present. Why would anyone what them to shape the way they think?

This is where Christians really lack spiritual understanding. They try and take the world's concept of things and apply them to a spiritual context. The church is not patterned after the world they are patterned after the Bible.

In fact, if you really do a historical study the way of the would used to be patterned after the Bible. Dad was a carpenter, musician, or whatever and he imparted his knowledge of his "anointing" to his children and they carried the torch of the family.

The world tried to improve on this system and created university and now we have a world full of educated idiots.

This statement illustrates how off track your comments are. I have never seen any legitimate ministry/minister think that their high school diploma qualified them for ministry. In fact, any minister who is raising up other ministers has a training ground for which they must prove them self through.

Again, the absurdity of this statement baffles me. Who in the world looks for an ignorant person to follow. How in the world do you equate ignorance as lack of education. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, was that an ignorant decision? Sam Walton dropped out of High School and so did Dave Thomas.

You are actually VERY incorrect on this:

Phil 3:8
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (KJV)

His education was as a Pharisee. That teaching was totally contrary to what he taught as the knowledge of Christ...which is why the Jews rejected Christianity. So his former education he counted as loss and pursued the knowledge of Christ which he did not obtain through a seminary.

The Scripture says to "Study to show thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth." Study is not reading, it’s not praying for revelations, it is putting the time in to learn. Only the most arrogant think there is nothing Seminary can teach them, personally I would never want to have a pastor who was so self absorbed that he would think that others couldn't teach him.[/QUOTE]

Again you have mixed topics. First of all we are to study to show ourselves approved. But I would hate to have a Pastor who studied without praying for revelation. You cannot intellectually obtain the knowledge of God, just as you cannot obtain the knowledge of God without study.

I too would not want to have a Pastor that thinks they cannot learn from someone else. But to think that a seminary is "required" to obtain that knowledge, to me, would be foolish.

Thanks for contributing to the post.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

While the concept here is true, it is also true in any field of study. I am sure that during your time in law school that you came across teachers who understood law, but were not good teachers.

I like the old saying which seems to be true in many instances where speaking of higher education, "Those who can do, those who can't teach"

No, you missed the point, I am not saying they taught because they couldn't make it on the outside, I am saying they were truly unqualified. I didn't have a single prof in law school that hadn't completed law school themselves. Some Bible colleges have allowed people to teach that had no education on the topic they were teaching.

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

You have two issues here. First of all a "preacher" is an educator. An educator by definition is, "a person or thing that educates, esp. a teacher, principal, or other person involved in planning or directing education." Therefore, if we decide to go to dinner and I suggest a restaurant that you have never heard of I have just "educated" you.

You fail on your own definition, you did not plan to direct my education. You gave me information, you did not educate me.

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

If a person is "called" then revelation will come in the area they are called in. This was one of the big problems with William Branham. He tried to become a teacher when he wasn't called to be a teacher. It messed him up and his ministry.

A person who is called is either already prepared or needs to prepare. Moses was placed in a position so that he could be educated. Luke was educated, Paul was educated.

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Again you have mixed topics. First of all we are to study to show ourselves approved. But I would hate to have a Pastor who studied without praying for revelation. You cannot intellectually obtain the knowledge of God, just as you cannot obtain the knowledge of God without study.

I believe that both Romans and Aquinas would disagree with your assertion, however I never suggested anywhere that a minister should only study. If you only study you may still have something to offer and if you only pray you may have something to offer, but the most effective are those who have done both.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I too would not want to have a Pastor that thinks they cannot learn from someone else. But to think that a seminary is "required" to obtain that knowledge, to me, would be foolish.

Again you are arguing something I didn't say. However, no minister is ever weaker for having sat at the feet of people more knowledgeable than themselves.

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

To me this is fundamental problem because if the person teaching doesn't think right themselves then what they are going to show the student will be a wrong way of thinking.

I am not sure how to answer this without sounding arrogant. Thinking right isn't about coming to the same conclusion as the prof. It’s about learning the skills to interpret the data. You think someone has to be "right" to teach. I disagree with almost every opinion Erwin Cherminsky has on Constitutional law but I learned a lot from his bar review on Constitutional law, just because he interprets it to find a right to abortion doesn’t mean he isn't a valuable source for learning how to think about Constitutional principles.

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

If you look at the church as a whole, it has lost a lot of power. We are as the times of Eli where the light in the temple has grown dim. So the people who are teaching who are people who know how to operate in a church atmosphere where the power of God is not present. Why would anyone what them to shape the way they think?

irrelevant see last response.

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

This is where Christians really lack spiritual understanding. They try and take the world's concept of things and apply them to a spiritual context. The church is not patterned after the world they are patterned after the Bible. In fact, if you really do a historical study the way of the would used to be patterned after the Bible. Dad was a carpenter, musician, or whatever and he imparted his knowledge of his "anointing" to his children and they carried the torch of the family. The world tried to improve on this system and created university and now we have a world full of educated idiots.

Wrong. Your anti-education view is not patterned after the Bible. In fact historically our colleges were founded as a result of Christianity and Theology was considered the highest degree available. It is the church that has strayed away.

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

This statement illustrates how off track your comments are. I have never seen any legitimate ministry/minister think that their high school diploma qualified them for ministry. In fact, any minister who is raising up other ministers has a training ground for which they must prove them self through.

What?

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Again, the absurdity of this statement baffles me. Who in the world looks for an ignorant person to follow. How in the world do you equate ignorance as lack of education. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard, was that an ignorant decision? Sam Walton dropped out of High School and so did Dave Thomas.

Ignorance - lack of knowledge, learning, information.

No one said you cannot be a success without an education, but if your profession is to communicate only a fool would cheat himself out of that opportunity. Its like a mechanic with a only a pair of pliers he sure has limited what he could do compared to having a full tool box.

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

You are actually VERY incorrect on this:

Phil 3:8
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, (KJV)

His education was as a Pharisee. That teaching was totally contrary to what he taught as the knowledge of Christ...which is why the Jews rejected Christianity. So his former education he counted as loss and pursued the knowledge of Christ which he did not obtain through a seminary..

Great use of a verse where Paul was counting as loss all his works compared to salvation in Christ alone, but what you don't find is Paul saying the education he received was useless.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

In the present condition of the Church seminary training is a very bad idea. You will be paying for men to teach you false doctrine on most topics.

Like which topics?