The Office of Pastor

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

The apostle Paul considered himself an apostle and teacher.

What is the modern day Apostolic church's stance on calling people apostles tho?

[Digging4Truth]

This is my take on the ministries...

Prophet.. Self Explanatory I would think... Someone who has the gift of prophecy or gives words of prophecy.

Apostle. To me the apostle appeared to be a mentor to the church leaders as well as church planters. The apostles were those who church leaders asked when they had a question. Many of the books of the NT were written in response to questions presented to them when there were questions that couldn't find resolution or an answer. The apostles were to the other ministries what the other ministries were to the other brethren in the local churches.

Pastor/Teacher - An elder, a leader, a mentor to those who came behind them. It would appear that a local assembly might have several pastors because a pastor was simply one who was a shepherd/mentor etc. The wisdom and experience of these brethren helped give guidance and direction to the younger saints.

Evangelist - An evangel. I don't think that the evangelist of the apostles time were people who traveled from church to church preaching firey revival services. I believe they were people... part of the local church... who spread the word in their local area. A herald. Of course probably every one was an evangelist of some sort but, just like our day, some were probably gifted in this ministry more powerfully than others.

Of course any person who was seen as any of these particular ministers would also work, on some level, as some of the other ministries as well.

On the subject of preaching... I don't feel that it meant back then what it means to us now when it says "Paul Preached". I think it was more of a dialogue and, of course, sometimes a monologue when teaching on something. I don't see that it was some powerfully worded piece of linguistic art replete with crescendos, ebbs & tides and loud disortations accompanied by spitting in the microphone. (I know... they didn't have microphones.)

[TJJJ]

The job of the pastor is this.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

They are undershepards taking immediate care of the flock. Many Pastors are also use in other offices, but in the local assembly we see that the office of the pastor seems to take precedence, because of their UNDERSHEPHERDING.

BUT... It also appears that many, many churched seem to relegate the other offices to at best, second string.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

The job of the pastor is this.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

They are undershepards taking immediate care of the flock. Many Pastors are also use in other offices, but in the local assembly we see that the office of the pastor seems to take precedence, because of their UNDERSHEPHERDING.

BUT... It also appears that many, many churched seem to relegate the other offices to at best, second string.

Just out of curiosity...

From which scripture does the concept that the Pastor is the under-shepherd taking immediate care of the flock come from?

I'm not challenging you... just asking.

[TJJJ]

Good question, thanks for asking. (By the way, if this is slow, have patience, I'm on dial up)

1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

One of the problems I see with many pastors is that they will make comments about the people being Their Sheep". Big mistake. As Pastors, they are under the Chief Shepherd. We are His sheep.

[Bigman]

The biggest reason that I feel pastors don't acknowledge the different offices is alot of pastors are very insecure in their calling. Anytime a man comes in with an operation of God they are not use to they begin to clam up. Men have to walk in the vocation that they are called in not comparing themselves among themselves. My whole family has a great heritage of pastors , but I still see a great lack of allowing God to use every nessasary element of ministry that was originally designed to build the church. There is only a certain amount of effect that each ministry will have on the body. Every man in ministry has to contribute his gifts and callings without the regret of what other men are going to say or think of him. If a pastor will not let a man of God come in and do that work God can let him do he is just short changing the church God has allowed him to pastor.

[Cindy]

I love my pastor, and am glad that God blessed our church with him and his family.

[shag]

Since the word "pastor"(singular) is not in the N.T., it seems to me that the overseeing of the NT church, was probably done by Elders(pluralty), according to the scriptures, which had been established in each city, to oversee the individual churches. Since the word "pastors"(plural) is only mentioned 1 time in N.T., I feel that maybe it is simply a descriptive word of what the office of Elders do(or did), they are(were) pastors/overseers/ of the church.

Acts 20:17(Elders),:28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.


1 Tim 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.

Titus 1:5 and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you—....vs.7 for a bishop(Elder) must be blameles....

Acts 14:23 So when they had appointed elders in every church





I'm unsure, but curious, as to when the term "pastor" became such a common "office" title, as it is pretty much on every sign of most common denominal and pentecostal churches.( curious because it is not found in NT in the singular, & 1 time in the plural)

[Pressing-On]

Michael,
Just a reminder that we have had this conversation in the past - almost a year ago. I would also note that we did agree on something. I am blessed!!!

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

CS,
After studying this subject it is so much more, for me, than the shepherd/sheep model or the 10,000 instructors but only one father" thing.

I've always been confused over the titles I've heard and seen as various churches use them. "Bishop" which is largely used by the Black churches etc.. Even then I never looked into it. Now that Michael has asked the questions he has asked it spurred me to know, for myself, what I thought about the various "offices" and church structure of the NT. I posted some of those findings to satisfy myself.

The beauty of the NT church is that we read the Gospels telling us that Jesus chose 12 disciples who became the foundation of the New Covenant. The correlation to the 12 tribes of Israel is clear and shows that the church is to be understood both as grounded in Judaism and as the fulfillment of God's intention in calling Israel to become "a light to the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth", (Isaiah 49:6; Romans 11:1-5).

It is this understanding that allows Paul to call this new Gentile-Jewish community - "The Israel of God" (Galatians 6:15-16). "There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28). Beautiful!

As I went on from that premise I understood that elder/bishop/overseer/Presbyter/pastor(shepherd) are each names indicating something about either the character of the elder or his responsibilities. They are not titles, but descriptions for one person - the elder/pastor. The elder/pastor is described as the overseer, the shepherd of the flock - "which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.' " Acts 20:17, 28.

We've discussed that the NT church should actually be run by a plurality of elders/presbytery. I found in my studies that the roots of the development of the presbytery (group of elders) in the NT and postapostolic church originate in Judism and the OT, though the figure of the elder or groups of elders can also be found in the world surrounding ancient Israell and in the Greco-Roman world of the NT period.

Going on that information I then find that the church does have a presbytery (group of elders), but one elder is being appointed as overseer by the entire council of elders.

I'm finding that is not unlike how we are operating today. The only problem I do see is the elder/pastor taking on the responsibility and at times defining his position as all parts of the five-fold ministry.

I don't have a problem with Romans 10:14. Any of the "five-fold" ministry is the "herald". Romans 10 is simply saying you must hear the Gospel. We have possibly erroneously based that scripture on "pastor" only, which is Micheal's contention, but neither does that negate the fact that the NT church has a structure set out by the Apostles - appointed - and if we are not a part of that - I believe we will be lost, IMO.

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

This is the kind of discussion I'm looking for - well said, PO.

The title of the thread where I obtained these posts:

You Can/cannot Be Saved Without A Preacher

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...=fold+ministry

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Bigman

The biggest reason that I feel pastors don't acknowledge the different offices is alot of pastors are very insecure in their calling. Anytime a man comes in with an operation of God they are not use to they begin to clam up. Men have to walk in the vocation that they are called in not comparing themselves among themselves. My whole family has a great heritage of pastors , but I still see a great lack of allowing God to use every nessasary element of ministry that was originally designed to build the church. There is only a certain amount of effect that each ministry will have on the body. Every man in ministry has to contribute his gifts and callings without the regret of what other men are going to say or think of him. If a pastor will not let a man of God come in and do that work God can let him do he is just short changing the church God has allowed him to pastor.

True statement...

But even the wording of your statement speaks to the very point of the thread.

"If a pastor will not let a man of God "come in"..."

The very wording plays to todays model where the pastor is the one ministry that is full time over the church while the others are side line ministries that simply "come in" from time to time.

Where did that one ministry become the one ministry that is constant and the others become relegated to traveling special ministries?