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  #11  
Old 08-11-2009, 12:40 PM
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

The search for the origins of the Trinity begins with the earliest writings of man. Records of early Mesopotamian and Mediterranean civilizations show polytheistic religions, though many scholars assert that earliest man believed in one god. The 19th century scholar and Protestant minister, Alexander Hislop, devotes several chapters of his book The Two Babylons to showing how this original belief in one god was replaced by the triads of paganism which were eventually absorbed into Catholic Church dogmas. A more recent Egyptologist, Erick Hornung, refutes the original monotheism of Egypt: ‘[Monotheism is] a phenomenon restricted to the wisdom texts,’ which were written between 2600 and 2530 BC (50-51); but there is no question that ancient man believed in ‘one infinite and Almighty Creator, supreme over all’ (Hislop 14); and in a multitude of gods at a later point. Nor is there any doubt that the most common grouping of gods was a triad.1



Most of ancient theology is lost under the sands of time. However, archaeological expeditions in ancient Mesopotamia have uncovered the fascinating culture of the Sumerians, which flourished over 4,000 years ago. Though Sumeria was overthrown first by Assyria, and then by Babylon, its gods lived on in the cultures of those who conquered. The historian S. H. Hooke tells in detail of the ancient Sumerian trinity: Anu was the primary god of heaven, the ‘Father’, and the ‘King of the Gods’; Enlil, the ‘wind-god’ was the god of the earth, and a creator god; and Enki was the god of waters and the ‘lord of wisdom’ (15-18). The historian, H. W. F. Saggs, explains that the Babylonian triad consisted of ‘three gods of roughly equal rank... whose inter-relationship is of the essence of their natures’ (316).
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  #12  
Old 08-11-2009, 12:42 PM
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Wow do you have a link to this?
http://www.apostolicarchives.com/cat...85/5874788.htm
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  #13  
Old 08-11-2009, 12:48 PM
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

God can in no way be described." -- Plato (Father of the pagan Trinity)

In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."

"Christendom has done away with Christianity without being quite aware of it" (Soren Kierkegaard, cited in Time magazine, Dec. 16, 1946, p. 64).
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  #14  
Old 08-11-2009, 12:54 PM
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

Nicene Creed introduced the word "homoousious" or "consubstantial" meaning "of one substance." This word was not invented at the Council. Eusebius writes that some of the "most learned and distinguished of the ancient bishops had made use of consubstantial in treating of the divinity of the Father and the Son" (See document E in the Appendix, Baker). We do not have the sources that Eusebius must have had regarding the use of this word. Today, the only source is Origen who used the word in what seems the orthodox way (Johannes Quastren, "Patrology," Volume 2, p78). However, this phrase of Eusebius stands as a witness to the existence of wider use.
The bishops assembled at Nicea were careful to explain how they used the word, and what it meant. This is because it had been misused by Paul of Samosta. Regarding this unorthodox usage, St. Hilary and St. Basil say that it was said to be "unfit to describe the relation between the Father and the Son" at a council that met in Antioch (Ibid, p14). Apparently Paul of Samosta applied the word in a manner that implied division of nature, as several coins are from the same metal (Baker, p21).

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  #15  
Old 08-11-2009, 12:58 PM
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

What does the Creed say?

Let us look at what the Creed says, and comment on some of its points. It is short, so we'll begin by quoting all of it.

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth;

I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

(translation by the International Consultation on English Texts)

The Creed, although having a Trinitarian structure, is not explicitly Trinitarian. The Creed began to be developed before the Trinitarian controversy arose, and the Creed (unlike the Nicene Creed) was not an attempt to correct a specific heresy.

Numerous scriptures could be mentioned as support for the various points of the Creed. The Creed was believed to be in full agreement with the apostolic writings, and the same churches accepted both the Creed and the Scriptures as authoritative, as faithful reports of what the apostles taught.

The Creed begins with a simple statement of faith in God, who has all power and is the originator of everything. This statement is a rejection of pagan mythologies, but it was acceptable to Jews and to some of the more educated Greeks.

Most of the Creed is about Jesus Christ, for he is the definitive doctrine of the faith. Beliefs about Jesus separate Christians from everyone else. Jesus was a specific person, born of a woman, executed under a specific Roman governor. Unlike mythological deities, he did not come from the distant and hazy past -- he interacted with the real world. He had a real body that was born, crucified and buried, and yet he was divine, too -- conceived by the Holy Spirit, resurrected, ascended into heaven at a position of supreme power. He is the unique Son of God, a unique Lord who is above all earthly lords, and he is the Judge who will return to earth to determine everyone's reward.

The early church knew about Jesus' earthly ministry and his miracles, but they did not feel that these were essential to the Christian faith. The Creed focuses more on his supernatural birth, his ignominious death and his supernatural power. These are of greatest theological significance, and were therefore included in the statement of faith.

'Descended to the dead'

The phrase "descended to the dead" is of special interest, in part because it used to be translated "descended into hell." Some medieval theologians came up with elaborate theories about what Jesus did in hell, but this misses the original purpose of the phrase.

Irenaeus and Tertullian do not have this phrase; it first appears in the writings of Rufinus, who said that it meant only that Jesus went to the grave, the "place" of the dead. This is in agreement with Scripture, which says that Jesus rose from "the dead" (a plural adjective used as a noun, meaning the situation that all dead people are in, as in Acts 4:10).

Peter applied the words of Psalm 16 to Jesus: "You will not abandon me to the grave" -- to Hades, the realm of the dead. When Jesus was dead, he was in Hades. Some believe he was conscious, and others believe he was not, but either way, he was in Hades, the realm of the dead.

The phrase "descended to the dead" disappeared from the creed for more than 200 years. Augustine, for one, did not have it. It occurs again in the Gallic Creed of 650 and remained from then on.

Some are troubled by this phrase and its history in the Creed; others are troubled by ancient and modern misinterpretations of the phrase. Some would prefer it be eliminated, since it does not add anything essential to the Creed, and is a point of disagreement rather than agreement.

Wayne Grudem argues that "unlike every other phrase in the Creed, it represents not some major doctrine on which all Christians agree, but rather a statement about which most Christians seem to disagree. It is at best confusing and in most cases misleading for modern Christians. My own judgment is that there would be all gain and no loss if it were dropped from the Creed once for all" (Systematic Theology, Zondervan, 1994, pp. 583-594).

Nevertheless, the words are in the Creed, and we cannot change the tradition. However, we can understand the words correctly so we can agree with them. Others may interpret these words differently, but we do not need to argue about that.

'The holy catholic church'

The Creed ends with a few brief statements. We can easily agree to a belief in the Holy Spirit, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection and eternal life. (Some may question "resurrection of the body." First Corinthians 15 says that our body will be transformed to be spiritual rather than fleshly, but it will still be our body.)

Some people are also put off by the words "holy catholic church." The word catholic comes from the Greek words kat' holos, literally meaning "according to the whole," or in actual use, worldwide or universal. The word catholic became part of the Creed before "catholic" became associated with the Roman church, and many Protestant churches use the Creed with the word catholic. In the Creed, we do not express faith in a specific denomination, but in the church worldwide -- that is, that there is one body, united by God's Spirit. The phrase "communion of saints" implies the same thing -- that as we all commune or have unity with Christ through the Holy Spirit, we also commune with each other. We will be united to one another forever.

The Apostles' Creed has been part of the Western church tradition for many centuries. It has not been perfect, but it has been useful for Christian confession, doctrine and discipleship. We accept the creed as a valid statement of faith for Christians.

For further comments on the Apostles' Creed, you may want to read Alister McGrath, "I Believe": Exploring the Apostles' Creed (InterVarsity, 1998). Several other authors have also written on this subject, including William Barclay, Stuart Briscoe and Michael Horton.

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  #16  
Old 08-11-2009, 01:01 PM
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Yes I realize that as did Eckstat. He was as I understand an attendee of an Assemblies of God Bible College.

Each of the persons is fully God. They are co equal and co eternal. They are multiple YHWH'S.
The end result is Tritheism. I understand John Eckstat brought many into Oneness truth. We should attempt to do the same.
More correctly, because you assert the bolded statement you must understand this as Tritheism. But it is YOUR language not that of any respectable Trinitarian.
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Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

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  #17  
Old 08-11-2009, 01:07 PM
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

Hoovie I don't hate Trinis I read their books and such,but that doctrine comes from a mingling of Greek philosphy with Christian ideas it was a departure from the monotheistic doctrine of the primitive Christian church.
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  #18  
Old 08-11-2009, 01:12 PM
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

Let me say this in kindness the denominational system and denominations directly or indirectly come from The Roman Catholic Church,thank God for the reformation,but the daughters of the Catholic church still have their momma in them.
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  #19  
Old 08-11-2009, 01:45 PM
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

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Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
More correctly, because you assert the bolded statement you must understand this as Tritheism. But it is YOUR language not that of any respectable Trinitarian.
Oh really? You must not have talked with as many of them as I have. Co equal, co eternal persons is the heart of Trinitarianism. If one does not believe THAT they are not Trins.

I was among them the first 5-6 years of my walk. I was Church of Christ, Jesus People, Freewill Baptist, Deliverance Pentecostal and Charismatic.

I rejoiced greatly to finally discover Oneness truth. I still rejoice in it today. Nothing gives me more joy than to hear Jesus Christ being magnified to the highest point in the Universe!

To me its not some tired old tradition of men. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ. It is the greatest knowledge thats ever crossed my mind! I am not ashamed to teach Jesus is the Father and the Son. I want everyone to believe it!

John Eckstat influenced my Charismatic Pastor and life long friend Ed Peagler into Oneness revelations. He taught it to us in the body in 1980 in Dayton, Ohio and we considered it a great leap forward not something to hide under a bushel.

I still get excited to hear the wonderful revelations taught by him concerning Jesus Christ.

Is the Oneness message all there is? By no means! But there is no message that is any more important.

Believe and teach the full gospel! I love it all.
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  #20  
Old 08-11-2009, 02:13 PM
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Re: Classic John Eckstat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Oh really? You must not have talked with as many of them as I have. Co equal, co eternal persons is the heart of Trinitarianism. If one does not believe THAT they are not Trins.

I was among them the first 5-6 years of my walk. I was Church of Christ, Jesus People, Freewill Baptist, Deliverance Pentecostal and Charismatic.

I rejoiced greatly to finally discover Oneness truth. I still rejoice in it today. Nothing gives me more joy than to hear Jesus Christ being magnified to the highest point in the Universe!

To me its not some tired old tradition of men. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ. It is the greatest knowledge thats ever crossed my mind! I am not ashamed to teach Jesus is the Father and the Son. I want everyone to believe it!

John Eckstat influenced my Charismatic Pastor and life long friend Ed Peagler into Oneness revelations. He taught it to us in the body in 1980 in Dayton, Ohio and we considered it a great leap forward not something to hide under a bushel.

I still get excited to hear the wonderful revelations taught by him concerning Jesus Christ.

Is the Oneness message all there is? By no means! But there is no message that is any more important.

Believe and teach the full gospel! I love it all.
Not sure what this has to do with anything. I simply called into question your statements that, "They are multiple YHWH'S. The end result is Tritheism."

I have spoken to plenty. Many of my Christian brothers are Trinitarian, and the Mennonite church I was part of when I met the Lord was "Trinitarian". None of these would agree to YOUR characterization of God.

Bottom line.. what you accuse - what you say they believe, is not at all what they think about God. Those types of fabrications are inflammatory and cause great harm to the body of Christ.
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"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005

I am a firm believer in the Old Paths

Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves

Last edited by Hoovie; 08-11-2009 at 02:25 PM.
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