Only 2 types of tongues not 3 - Page 2

jfrog · #11 10-23-2009, 10:54 PM

Unless in 1 Corinthians 14:14-16 the prayer in unknown tongues was understood by the speaker and not by the listeners

jfrog · #12 10-23-2009, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is always a possibility in anything anyone says. But when reading 1 Cor 14 and studying the idea of prayer in the Spirit and with the understanding, one cannot find any instance anywhere where a certain kind of prayer is limited to only a select few. Since each gift is only given to a select people, and not the whole church possessing all the gifts, then the entire concept of prayer in tongue-praying seems to demand that it is available to everyone! And since the Spirit baptism is for everyone, but the gifts are not, seems to be a no-brainer to me.

1 Corinthians 14:16 makes it clear that praying with understanding was supposed to accompany praying with the spirt (at least when others were present) This makes 1 Corinthians 14:15 have to mean that we are supposed to pray with the spirit and with the understanding at the same time.

jfrog · #13 10-23-2009, 11:06 PM

So my stance is still that the only reference in scripture we have to praying in the spirit was a reference where we are told to pray in the spirit but also with the understanding simultaneously. There is no scripture for praying in the spirit without the understanding. Without such a verse, there is no verse in the bible that can be referenced to biblically substantiate the pentecostal practice of praying in tongues without understanding what you are saying.

jfrog · #14 10-23-2009, 11:47 PM

Wow, I think I just totally figured out how 1 Corinthians 14:13-17 fits perfectly into context of the rest of the chapter...

I understand that the word "unknown" was added is not really present in that chapter. To my knowledge ever reference of tongues in that chapter is from the same greek word. I've seen some try to distinguish between unknown tongues and tongues in this chapter. I do not think this is right. Anyways now that my rant is over with here is how I see that in context...

1 Corinthians 14:1-17. The verses of this passage have a common theme. That theme is edification of the church. Verses 1-6 tell us how prophesy edifies the church and tongues do not except with interpretation. Verses 7-12 further illustrate this by natural example and concludes with an statement to edify the church. Verses 13-17 tell us what we ought to do when we speak in tongues. We ought to interpret. That is what this whole subsection is about, interpretation. 15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit and with the understanding (interpretation) also. 16) Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? (because there was no interpretation provided) 17) For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified (because there was no interpretation)

Verses 13-17 are simply a repeat of what he has been saying all along, that tongues only edify the church when there is an interpretation.

mfblume · #15 10-24-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

Unless in 1 Corinthians 14:14-16 the prayer in unknown tongues was understood by the speaker and not by the listeners

Then what does this mean:

1 Corinthians 14:14 KJV (14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

mfblume · #16 10-24-2009, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

1 Corinthians 14:16 makes it clear that praying with understanding was supposed to accompany praying with the spirt (at least when others were present) This makes 1 Corinthians 14:15 have to mean that we are supposed to pray with the spirit and with the understanding at the same time.

Praying in the Spirit is speaking in tongues. Praying with understanding is praying in the native tongue all understand. How can you do that at the same time? Unless you mean to pray in native tongue for a few minutes and then pray in tongues afterwards in the same prayer.

jfrog · #17 10-24-2009, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Praying in the Spirit is speaking in tongues. Praying with understanding is praying in the native tongue all understand. How can you do that at the same time? Unless you mean to pray in native tongue for a few minutes and then pray in tongues afterwards in the same prayer.

Actually it would be pray in tongues first and then interpret those tongues after. That is what verse 15 is about. Verse 16 even begins by saying when you bless with the spirit how should the other people say Amen. (They can't unless there is an interpreter)

mfblume · #18 10-24-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

Actually it would be pray in tongues first and then interpret those tongues after. That is what verse 15 is about. Verse 16 even begins by saying when you bless with the spirit how should the other people say Amen. (They can't unless there is an interpreter)

Oh, I see your point. Interesting.

jfrog · #19 10-24-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Oh, I see your point. Interesting.

Yes, so what I'm getting at is that there is no mention of praying in tongues without an interpreter in any of the verses in 1 Corinthians 14. Everytime tongues is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14 they are only spoken highly of when there is an interpreter. In fact, the whole chapter seems to be saying don't speak in tongues without an interpreter. Maybe this is only for when you are before others in the church. But, it seems that there is nothing in this chapter to support the practice of praying in tongues being between yourself and God only. I'm not saying that practice is unbiblical only that there seems to be no verse that can be used to show this was actually an early church practice.

mfblume · #20 10-24-2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

Yes, so what I'm getting at is that there is no mention of praying in tongues without an interpreter in any of the verses in 1 Corinthians 14. Everytime tongues is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14 they are only spoken highly of when there is an interpreter. In fact, the whole chapter seems to be saying don't speak in tongues without an interpreter. Maybe this is only for when you are before others in the church. But, it seems that there is nothing in this chapter to support the practice of praying in tongues being between yourself and God only. I'm not saying that practice is unbiblical only that there seems to be no verse that can be used to show this was actually an early church practice.

What about the words of Paul saying that prayer in tongues edifies oneself but PROPHESYING edifies others? He did not say prayer in tongues that is interpreted edifies others. And prophesying is not the same thing as interpretation of tongues.

I think that since Paul said prayer in tongues edifies oneself, and since he said he spoke in tongues more than them all but yet in the CHURCH he rather spoke in the native language, he meant that prayer in tongues is done in private. Why else would he say he spoke in tongues more than anyone, but YET IN THE CHURCH not do so?