Better pay up....LOL - Page 2

notofworks · #11 12-31-2009, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Thanks for the update on Mr Warren. Did not know this.

I do know one thing for certain, though. The money issue with Big Religion is a sore subject with a great majority of people in America (Not too sure about other Countries). Mega Churches that relish in lavish Cathedrals, total state of the art technology, and a payroll that may compete with large corporations, leaves many in a quandry over why they need more.

NFS, I've been to Saddleback and I was shocked. It's anything but lavish. The auditorium is relatively simple. No lavish anything. There are about 3,500 plastic chairs in simple surroundings. I'm 100% with you on the lavish cathedral thing. We eliminated ours and will never own a building again. But Saddleback isn't one of the lavish places.

My personal experience is, our Organization is constantly begging for more money. I say begging, because that's about the only time I get a call, and this is no exageration. 14 years pastoring and the emails, regular mail, and personal phone calls are enough to make one sick. I get hammered with one offering after the next.

Are you able to say what the organization is? I completely understand and agree with what you're, but again, that's not the way Saddleback operates.

It's gotten to the point that I've finally cornered the brethren who call me and ask them, "Is this the only time you call me? Asking for money?"

So maybe this is why I have a chip on my shoulder. Sorry if I come across that way. After 30 years of seeing Pastors get a special plaque and a pat on the back, getting their Churches to the top of the list because of how much they gave, while the Bible clearly states that giving is a secret experience, makes me tired of these pleas.

I'm extremely hesitant to ask when there's a need. I've seen too much people-pounding for money. But then, when people find out there's a shortfall, I always hear, "Why didn't you make the need known?" Paul made the need known in II Corinthians 8 & 9, and that's what Rick is doing here. He's letting his people know there's a need and I would bet you they want to know.

Things get tight, and bills pile up. Welcome to the Family!! Join the people who have lost their jobs and their homes. I've got people in our Church who came from from other churches where all they did was fund raisers. Every service they were selling something, and the asking never ceased. Begging is what it became, and these folks got completely burned out. I also came from a Church were the Fund Raisers became a constant nag on people, and some left the Church because of it.

I can't stand that stuff. Hate it. We don't even pass a plate at our services. But Saddleback is innocent in hammering people for money.

I was on the verge of bankruptcy 5 years ago. I almost lost everything. But I refused to put that burden on people who have a hard enough time getting by. Through my difficulty, I have learned much about prayer, myself, and that God loves me even if I have nothing.

Well.....I won't tell my story, I'll PM you. All I'll say is, I can more than relate.

What about all the people in Church who give because of the guilt trip we lay on them? What about the $119,700,000 his books have brought in (Warrens income on his books)?

Rick Warren calls himself a "Reverse-Tither." A huge amount of his money goes to Aids work in Africa, he takes no salary, he owns two suits, and lives in the same house as he did 20 years ago, before "Purpose Driven" was written. He started the church from scratch around 30 years ago. We're seeing him now at the mountaintop in great success. But it took years of climbing, pain, sacrifice, and making it on nothing.

Sorry Bro, but I just can't grasp the need. Keep your $100.00.

Good film we just watched; Luther. Great film that deals with this subject.

Happy New Year!! Thanks for the Christmas Card! Blessings to your family.

You're welcome and blessings to you and yours!! By the way, when I first went to Saddleback, there was one lavish building. It was obvious they had put a lot into it. I walked in, assuming it was the sanctuary, and.....it was the children's building. It was much nicer than the Sanctuary. That really made an impression on me.

ManOfWord · #12 01-01-2010, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Thanks for the update on Mr Warren. Did not know this.

I do know one thing for certain, though. The money issue with Big Religion is a sore subject with a great majority of people in America (Not too sure about other Countries). Mega Churches that relish in lavish Cathedrals, total state of the art technology, and a payroll that may compete with large corporations, leaves many in a quandry over why they need more.

My personal experience is, our Organization is constantly begging for more money. I say begging, because that's about the only time I get a call, and this is no exageration. 14 years pastoring and the emails, regular mail, and personal phone calls are enough to make one sick. I get hammered with one offering after the next.

It's gotten to the point that I've finally cornered the brethren who call me and ask them, "Is this the only time you call me? Asking for money?"

So maybe this is why I have a chip on my shoulder. Sorry if I come across that way. After 30 years of seeing Pastors get a special plaque and a pat on the back, getting their Churches to the top of the list because of how much they gave, while the Bible clearly states that giving is a secret experience, makes me tired of these pleas.

Things get tight, and bills pile up. Welcome to the Family!! Join the people who have lost their jobs and their homes. I've got people in our Church who came from from other churches where all they did was fund raisers. Every service they were selling something, and the asking never ceased. Begging is what it became, and these folks got completely burned out. I also came from a Church were the Fund Raisers became a constant nag on people, and some left the Church because of it.

I was on the verge of bankruptcy 5 years ago. I almost lost everything. But I refused to put that burden on people who have a hard enough time getting by. Through my difficulty, I have learned much about prayer, myself, and that God loves me even if I have nothing.

What about all the people in Church who give because of the guilt trip we lay on them? What about the $119,700,000 his books have brought in (Warrens income on his books)?

Sorry Bro, but I just can't grasp the need. Keep your $100.00.

Good film we just watched; Luther. Great film that deals with this subject.

Happy New Year!! Thanks for the Christmas Card! Blessings to your family.

Can't say I feel any different here! This is exactly the way I felt as well before my exodus. It does get old when you seem to be only a source of offerings.

freeatlast · #13 01-01-2010, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother David

Really... it's kind of hard to slam Warren considering the way we've all been running our country for the last 80 years.

Slamming Bro Warren for malking a need known to his congrgation.

TSK TSK TSK Have ye never been to our General Conference and endured a three to four hour offering plea.

Or to one of camp meetings where people are asked to stand and give a hundred to pay fo rthew camp.....and then after counting the offering, the minister comes back with, 'we didn't get enough" and go on for anther half hour to get more money?

We do no take offerings in our church. We probably don't even mention more than 10 times a year, that there are offering boxes on the back wall by the exit doors, for our members to contribute in.

Sister Alvear · #14 01-01-2010, 08:08 AM

That sure makes a person feel bad when they are only remembered at offering time...

notofworks · #15 01-01-2010, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freeatlast

Slamming Bro Warren for malking a need known to his congrgation.

TSK TSK TSK Have ye never been to our General Conference and endured a three to four hour offering plea.

Or to one of camp meetings where people are asked to stand and give a hundred to pay fo rthew camp.....and then after counting the offering, the minister comes back with, 'we didn't get enough" and go on for anther half hour to get more money?

We do no take offerings in our church. We probably don't even mention more than 10 times a year, that there are offering boxes on the back wall by the exit doors, for our members to contribute in.

It's incredible what happens when we allow the Holy Spirit to do what we claim He can do. We put boxes on the back wall and cancelled the offerings (we'd never heard of anyone doing it but felt it was the right thing to do, and we were not in good financial condition) and our offerings doubled in four months.

Although Saddleback passes the place, there was zero mention of it except to say, "Guests, please don't feel obligated to contribute". There was zero pressure. One of the foundational building blocks of Saddleback and Willow Creek (started at about the same time using identical principles), is, zero money pressure.

Rick Warren was informing the church of a need and I think he did it in an ethical and classy way.

Praxeas · #16 01-01-2010, 04:56 PM

Maybe they should charge more for their double mocha lattes

Sam · #17 01-01-2010, 07:51 PM

I go to a small church. It is in the inner city of Hamilton, Ohio and ministers to inner city people. It is not a wealthy church and
we feed over 100 kids dinner on Wednesday before Kid's Church
we provide breakfast on Sunday mornings
we give away coats in the fall
we give away backpacks with school supplies in the fall
we give away groceries and clothes as they are available
we give Christmas gifts to needy families

We do not get money from the folks we feed and give stuff to. We do have some members but none of us is very affluent. Tithing is preached on occasion but is not taught as salvational and the pastor does not personally know who gives what so we are not treated by the pastor based on how much we give or don't give.

There is mention from the pulpit when it is time to give away coats or backbacks or Christmas gifts or Thanksgiving meals and people are encouraged to give for those needs.

A while back we had to repair one of our buses and it was anticipated that a replacement part would be needed and we were asked to give enough to cover that cost. Later, when the part did not need to be replaced the pastor told the congregation that the repair did not cost as much as anticipated and offered to return money to anyone who had given. I don't know if anyone took him up on it. I didn't.

A couple months ago as we neared the end of the month we did not have enough to meet all the expenses and we were told about it and asked to give a little more. The money came in and the needs were met.

We have taken up money (special offerings) for people out of work or with different needs.

I know things like this would turn some people off but I just think it is the leadership of the church being open and honest about financial affairs.

Our pastor does not live lavishly and his wife works full time to supplement their income.

MissBrattified · #18 01-01-2010, 08:03 PM

Because of the way Rick Warren pastors his church and the relatively modest lifestyle he apparently exemplifies, I would say bringing a need before his very LARGE congregation is perfectly acceptable.

$900,000.00 divvies up to be $22.50 per member. I see nothing at ALL to complain about with his request.

What do his critics expect? For him to cover the cost alone?

notofworks · #19 01-01-2010, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Because of the way Rick Warren pastors his church and the relatively modest lifestyle he apparently exemplifies, I would say bringing a need before his very LARGE congregation is perfectly acceptable.

$900,000.00 divvies up to be $22.50 per member. I see nothing at ALL to complain about with his request.

What do his critics expect? For him to cover the cost alone?

And I think that's just it.....he could easily cover the cost himself. But is that what God would want? Or would He desire that all join in and cover the shortage? I'm sure a large part of the budget has already been covered by him.

So considering Warren's wealth.....let's suppose a church has a yearly budget of 20 million. And let's suppose the pastor personally brings in 30 million. Does that mean he covers everything and no money is ever received and no one gives?

MissBrattified · #20 01-01-2010, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notofworks

And I think that's just it.....he could easily cover the cost himself. But is that what God would want? Or would He desire that all join in and cover the shortage? I'm sure a large part of the budget has already been covered by him.

So considering Warren's wealth.....let's suppose a church has a yearly budget of 20 million. And let's suppose the pastor personally brings in 30 million. Does that mean he covers everything and no money is ever received and no one gives?

Personally, I don't think so. As a member of a congregation, I take personal responsibility for the expenses of meeting on a regular basis, and I don't believe the Bible shows that a pastor (or other leader) has a greater obligation than a saint in that regard.

Plus, I grew up in a pastor's home, and more than once my Dad has emptied our bank account so he could pay church bills, because people would get angry if he asked for more money. When I was about 10 years old, my parents sold our house to help pay for a new building. That is not the way it should work, and saints who feel it's the pastor's job to pay all the bills should be ashamed of themselves.