Baptism: Essential or Not

[deacon blues]

We (Apostolic-raised) don't understand what it means to be sons of God, by and large. "If you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Spirit to those who ask of Him?" Yet we have the "chronic seekers", the begging children coming to the altar asking, pleading, wondering why their Father seems to not like them, why he won't let them speak in tongues, why He seems to give it easily and effortlessly to others and witholds it from them.

I was one of them. From age 8 to 18 I didn't speak in tongues after my first experience as a child. All through the rest of my childhood and teen years I would go to the altar and ask, and weep and beg and try to understand why I couldn't speak in tongues. I was told from the pulpit that there was something wrong with me if I didn't speak in tongues every day. I didn't speak in tongues weekly, monthly or annually. I would waffle from "God has abandoned me" to "I'm just not tarrying long enough", to "I just don't have enough faith", to "I must have something in my life I'm not surrendering". I just couldn't get it. However, I never stopped understanding the cross and His love for me. I would weep at the preaching, during worship, in my bedroom in prayer. I read my Bible and I loved the Lord. I won some friends to Jesus in high school and they were changed. I just had this little personal struggle that I didn't understand. However, I never got to the place where I thought I was lost. I always understood I was His beloved son.

Then in Bible school the revelation hit me. There wasn't a single passage that demanded speakimng in tongues every day or even after the initial infilling. It was a great relief to me and shortly thereafter I prayed for and God gave me the gift of tongues that has been a part of my prayer life, worship and walk God ever since. I still believed in the "initial eveidence" for a long time afterward, but in time came to realize that that wasn't scriptural either.

Looking back on it I can see the one thing that kept me from complete discouragement and hopelessness. It was the grace of God. I never once thought He didn't love me. I never once struggled with the idea that He was with me (sometimes I didn't think He was in me). I never believed that I was less important to the Lord. I knew consciously and subconsciously that I was His child.

And isn't that the source of much of what is wrong in the world today? Father issues. The missing fathers in people's lives or the absence of a loving father is the root of much of what is wrong in humanity. Ultimately its the lack of understanding our heavenly Father and His love and compassion for us that causes people to embrace legalism or to reject Him altogether.

Saw a documentary on Hitler the other day. It said his father was given to fits of rage and would beat Adolph as a little child often. His father was a strict and harsh disciplinarian. I wonder what kind of man Adolph Hitler might have become had he had a different father? What kind of people would we become if we understood our Father is not like this! What the world would become if we understood and had a right relationship with our Father! What kind of Christians and what kind of churches we would be and have if we could embrace this Gospel of Grace versus a different gospel that is "Jesus Plus"?

I thank God for the peace and security I now live with in the greater understanding of His Fatherhood. Its a great place to be! Would to God all men could know its profundity!

[seguidordejesus]

Got a website, Deac? Aren't you in Memphis? PM me if you want.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Then in Bible school the revelation hit me. There wasn't a single passage that demanded speakimng in tongues every day or even after the initial infilling. It was a great relief to me and shortly thereafter I prayed for and God gave me the gift of tongues that has been a part of my prayer life, worship and walk God ever since. I still believed in the "initial eveidence" for a long time afterward, but in time came to realize that that wasn't scriptural either.

L

I hope you have enjoyed your time as a member of the United Pentecostal Church International!!! You clearly have "gone charismatic".

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Had an interesting conversation with a couple Sunday afternoon about salvation. They were adament that water baptism is essential for salvation as well as being filled with the Holy Ghost with initial evidence of speaking in other tongues. They were emphatic about it, yet in the conversation they said a couple of things that didn't match their rhetoric.

First, I gave them the hypothetical situation where a man repents on a Sunday morning but wants to get baptized on Sunday night so family and friends can come to witness the event and celebrate it. What happens if the man dies that afternoon?
I also shared the story of a man who is dying and repents on his deathbed. Will that man go to heaven?

Their response was, "We aren't the judge. I won't put those people I hell. That's God's decision." Well, if baptism is essential for salvation, there can't be exceptions. It is either absolutley essential or not, period.

Then in the conversation they confessed that although their 13 year old son had repented and had received the HG, he has yet to be baptized. They said they were careful not to pressure him and have told him when he was ready to let them know. Really? Do you really believe that baptism is absolutely necessary? Wouldn't you be more forceful with your own child knowing that he isn't ready for heaven?

I think these people reflect a lot of folks who say they believe these things are essential for salvation, because that is what they've always been told, that their hero-pastor, Brother So-and-So preached it this way, that granny walked in this way. Yet they are willing to admit that there are scenarios where God won't require some people the "3 Steps" on a case by case basis. I used to say these same things to explain the anomalies that would arise from time to time to my Apostolic paradigm.

I preach and practice water baptism in Jesus Name. I preach the baptism of the HG. I believe in speaking in tongues and I do speak in tongues (more than you all---ha, just kidding). I don't speak in tongues every day. I don't even really keep track of when I do or how often. My wife and two of my kids have repented, been baptized in JN and have received the baptism of the HG. My youngest son has yet to be baptized in the HG. I believe he is going to heaven right now though. We are saved by grace, through faith, not of works.

There are 18 conversions recorded in Acts. There are 4 that include the Acts 2:38 pattern. ALL of them, however, include repentance/faith/believing. In fact, faith is the one constant from Genesis to Revelation.

One thing the couple said that was telling to me when I talked about our vision to reach the lost, to rejoice in the altar service at their repentance. I said, "After all the three of us are going to heaven. We have got to be focused on those who aren't." They chuckled and said, "Well, we're trying to get there. We hope we go there." Its revealing of the legalist mindset. They aren't legalists when it comes to standards, but they are when it comes to salvation. They've completed what is essential for salvation in their minds, yet they aren't sure they are saved. It was like looking at myself 20 years ago.

And admittedly I find myself fighting that urge from time to time to evaluate myself on my performance. How well am I doing? Am I praying enough? Am I reading my Bible consistently? Am I staying clean and unspotted by sin and the world? Am I being good? But the Lord doesn't evaluate me on my performance. He evaluates me through the cross. I am evaluated as a father evaluates his child. He loves me based not on performance but based on our relationship. I am saved because of His grace, and I live with peace, not "hoping" I can make it. I know I'm going to make it.

Do I fall? Do I fail? Do I sin? Absolutely. Am I smitten when I do? Am I broken-hearted when I disappoint my Father? Yes. Am I repentant and remorseful? Yes. But I'm not "trying" to get to heaven. I am trying to be obedient to my Father and yield to His will every day, with every choice.

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by CC1

I hope you have enjoyed your time as a member of the United Pentecostal Church International!!! You clearly have "gone charismatic".

I was thinking the same thing

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by CC1

I hope you have enjoyed your time as a member of the United Pentecostal Church International!!! You clearly have "gone charismatic".

More like "gone Global" or "going Global"...

And I have, for the most part, enjoyed the UPC. Its by far been more positive than negative. And I appreciate my history. Far more people who were genuinely walking with Jesus than weren't were my experience. My parents and my Granny especially. My pastor and his wife were always kind to me and very prayerful people. The folks who taught Sunday School and were elders. Youth leaders, music folks, the average church goer, the vast majority great people, children of God. I love them and appreciate them and would love nothing more than to see God's blessings on them all and their churches and ministers. I am grateful for my upbringing.

But ultimately I must follow where God is taking me. Just trying to trust and obey.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

More like "gone Global" or "going Global"...

And I have, for the most part, enjoyed the UPC. Its by far been more positive than negative. And I appreciate my history. Far more people who were genuinely walking with Jesus than weren't were my experience. My parents and my Granny especially. My pastor and his wife were always kind to me and very prayerful people. The folks who taught Sunday School and were elders. Youth leaders, music folks, the average church goer, the vast majority great people, children of God. I love them and appreciate them and would love nothing more than to see God's blessings on them all and their churches and ministers. I am grateful for my upbringing.

But ultimately I must follow where God is taking me. Just trying to trust and obey.

I appreciate your spirit. However, I can't honestly say the same as right here in the bolded.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

More like "gone Global" or "going Global"...

And I have, for the most part, enjoyed the UPC. Its by far been more positive than negative. And I appreciate my history. Far more people who were genuinely walking with Jesus than weren't were my experience. My parents and my Granny especially. My pastor and his wife were always kind to me and very prayerful people. The folks who taught Sunday School and were elders. Youth leaders, music folks, the average church goer, the vast majority great people, children of God. I love them and appreciate them and would love nothing more than to see God's blessings on them all and their churches and ministers. I am grateful for my upbringing.

But ultimately I must follow where God is taking me. Just trying to trust and obey.

Another Motown boy bites the dust.

I'm going Global as well, this year.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

More like "gone Global" or "going Global"...

And I have, for the most part, enjoyed the UPC. Its by far been more positive than negative. And I appreciate my history. Far more people who were genuinely walking with Jesus than weren't were my experience. My parents and my Granny especially. My pastor and his wife were always kind to me and very prayerful people. The folks who taught Sunday School and were elders. Youth leaders, music folks, the average church goer, the vast majority great people, children of God. I love them and appreciate them and would love nothing more than to see God's blessings on them all and their churches and ministers. I am grateful for my upbringing.

But ultimately I must follow where God is taking me. Just trying to trust and obey.

I appreciate your good spirit and attitude. There are a lot of good folks in the UPC. Glad you are trusting and obeying where God is leading you.

[Carpenter]

I have always wondered about the sequence of salvation in the 3-step process...the traditional is repentance, baptism, then tongues as they are coming out of the water...at least this is the marketing message. A curveball is tossed into the abstract when someone speaks in tongues without being baptized. I have heard it preached that God will not deposit his spirit (wine) in an dirty pot. Interesting that if the Lord would fill someone with HIS spirit, and if that person were not baptized, then a spirit filled person would be considered damned?...and what of the effectiveness of their baptism?

...then there are tithes.