The poor in America

[Truthseeker]

Seems they most "poverty" issues are lifestyle choices, at least here in USA.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Seems they most "poverty" issues are lifestyle choices, at least here in USA.

Respectfully, that's extremely ignorant of you to suggest that... But unfortunately, it's a common talking point, and thousands say the same thing. I encourage you to take a closer look at poverty, not just the images of cardboard signs at the street lights.

[aegsm76]

After looking at people outside of the US, I never see "poverty" here.
I do see people who are poorer than others.
Some of it is due to bad luck.
The rest is due to poor choices.
Either by the person or their parents.
In this country one has to choose to be "poor".
Disclaimer: this does not apply to the mentally ill, who used to receive help, but now must not have their civil rights violated.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

After looking at people outside of the US, I never see "poverty" here.
I do see people who are poorer than others.
Some of it is due to bad luck.
The rest is due to poor choices.
Either by the person or their parents.
In this country one has to choose to be "poor".
Disclaimer: this does not apply to the mentally ill, who used to receive help, but now must not have their civil rights violated.

You know, AEGSM, I used to think just like you, until I got my hands dirty with the poor in my City. Until I was involved in Poverty Studies. I put down my defensive (which I couldn't explain at the time) and listened. And I learned a lot just by listening.

And if this all boils down to a choice -- and if that choice was a parent's, what difference does it make -- it wasn't the the child's. Many people didn't choose to be a black male, growing up in South Central, in an environment where survival, what color you wore and how well you could scrap were far more important than what study group you were apart of. They didn't choose to have no awareness of success, other than the rap videos they grew up with. It's easy to say "choose to turn the channel" and "choose to be positive" but that takes no account for living in the middle of it, and it being the only way of life you know. Nor the long-time, blue-collar worker, who cared for his young family, until he lost his leg in an accident. (Short-term disability is short-term). You could argue using drugs us a choice, but drug addiction is a little more complex than just calling it a choice. Abused families finding their only way out of horrid situations, on the cold sidewalks. No one chooses poverty. It is a plight, a nightmare, a dungeon. Sure, there are those remarkable stories about an inner city kid making his way to Harvard or a junkie coming clean and hitting the big time. And there are those darlings from Slumdog Millionaire that make everyone feel all warm and fuzzy for having done their bit to help. For every success story of breaking away from poverty’s death knell, there are thousands, millions even, of stories that are too distressing to cover on the six o’clock news. It’s the children that always move me.

The children are victims at best, lost causes at worst. It’s the children who are casualties in this war against poverty. Isn’t it our moral imperative to reach out to those weaker than us? Should we not band together to, at the very least, protect the children?

The fact is, we have this myth of choice because of a cognitive dissonance -- society's response and disconnect between the success we believe is possible and the existence of homelessness, poverty and broken families. We worship the American Dream. The result is stigmatization, shame and a plethora of one-liners to dismiss the rift raft.

Furthermore, the gracious response would not be to buy into the worldly American Dream, self-righteously condemning those who aren't good enough, just aren't trying hard enough, are just not making enough right choices, and to bypass them on a Jericho road. Who is my neighbor? Jesus didn't give an income list. He never qualified why they were poor. The OT commandments never did either. This is American worldliness at its best and it's a disease in our churches.

Let's live gracious, be gracious, understand poverty as something greater than making a few extra bucks, but as an oppressive demon of hopelessness, despair, powerlessness and one that leaves its victims stranded on the periphery of life, marginalized and put out. Jesus called, us who were strangers, into His house, clothed us, fed us, called us friends, children even... and we were broken and undeserving. This is why we extend that same graciousness to others.

[Socialite]

And that long post probably killed this thread. But I hope not. I hope someone reads it and joins the conversation. I also posted some snippets from the Keller interview with Fox (knowing most folks will not open a link -- I don't usually either).

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Respectfully, that's extremely ignorant of you to suggest that... But unfortunately, it's a common talking point, and thousands say the same thing. I encourage you to take a closer look at poverty, not just the images of cardboard signs at the street lights.

Respectfully back, I stand by my statement. I don't mean all but a good amount is by lifestyle choices. Haven't seen one motivated hard working person not make it.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Respectfully back, I stand by my statement. I don't mean all but a good amount is by lifestyle choices. Haven't seen one motivated hard working person not make it.

Fair enough.

#1 I think there are hundreds of thousands hard-working people not making it. I've met many of them. And for those who are indeed lazy, I have compassion knowing their laziness is a symptom of their impoverishment and oppression. I find ways to provide for immediate needs, feeding them, restoring dignity to them -- that they are made in the Image of God, and then helping bring hope to their dim eyes.

#2 I think your perspective is quite narrow in how you define poverty.

#3 You've bought into the worldly deception spawned by the so-called American Dream.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Fair enough.

#1 I think there are hundreds of thousands hard-working people not making it. I've met many of them. And for those who are indeed lazy, I have compassion knowing their laziness is a symptom of their impoverishment and oppression. I find ways to provide for immediate needs, feeding them, restoring dignity to them -- that they are made in the Image of God, and then helping bring hope to their dim eyes.

#2 I think your perspective is quite narrow in how you define poverty.

#3 You've bought into the worldly deception spawned by the so-called American Dream.

I agree with we should try to reconcile all people even l;axy no working bums, but that is not the issue. I did say "that I know of". I guess my profession exposes me to certain mindsets and people that other may not experience.

The thread is "poor in america" listing material gains etc... that even poor have. That's what I responded to. there's spiritual poverty, influence poverty, power poverty, as you posted.. etc....

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Socialite

http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Add...3-30-2011.html


A side comment, given by Keller in a separate context:

bump for this article and discussion.

[aegsm76]

How do you deal with the scripture in these cases.

"If none would work, neither should he eat".

"He that will not provide for his family, is worse than an infidel".

Aren't exact quotes, but I'm in a hurry!