Tongues & The Unbelievers

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Amanah

But I have this horrible feeling like I don't fit anywhere anymore.
Like I've changed and the world has change and the church has changed.
But there is something that I want to go back to and it's impossible for me to get there.

And I don't know where to turn, or how to find what I'm looking for.
I can't seem to see what I'm looking for anywhere I look.

Amanah, I've been there, the changing part that is, and remember that Christ said that with God, nothing is impossible.

What you are looking for is that wonderful feeling we had when we first got to know the Lord. That glow...that feeling that God sees us as special and His awesome love towards us. We felt awesome wonder at His Power and Grace. We did not look at the people around us at that time. We were only looking at the Lord Jesus.

My problem started when I took my eyes off Jesus and onto my fellow worshippers and worried about what they thought of me because I heard gossip about others.

Sometimes we will be in the wilderness, by ourselves for a time. The only place to look is up...up to God so that He can provide for us our spiritual manna.

I am one of those whose mind keeps whirling while I lay in bed to where I cannot sleep because I am always thinking about things. I have taken to putting in the Bible DVD and listening to the Word and concentrating on God's Word as I get ready to sleep. It plays all night softly so as not to actually disturb my sleep. Actually, you would be surprised at how much you actually learn even in your sleep and it's so comforting.

God thinks you are very special and he will get you to that place in Him that you so desire to be. Keep looking towards Him.

[Michael The Disciple]

You are changing the playing field. Your first post said 36 times where people received the Holy Ghost. Now you are saying salvations. But what you refer to as salvations are not always complete salvations.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

You are changing the playing field. Your first post said 36 times where people received the Holy Ghost. Now you are saying salvations. But what you refer to as salvations are not always complete salvations.

Could you provide an example of one of these incomplete salvations?

I don't know what you are referring to.

[Michael The Disciple]

Perhaps we would better understand each other if you can show the 36 places where people received the Holy Ghost.

I can't find the webpage right now but one time someone (Seems like it was DA) presented a page that showed that there are 36 instances in the NT where people recieved the Holy Ghost.

[Nitehawk013]

What are using to measure the validity of the evidence doctrine? What metric?

I mean if you go by incidences, you have at minmum 5 times those who were "saved" spoke in tongues when they received the HG. If you go by number of people...well then you have 120 in the first instance. Another 3000 in Acts 2:41. 12 I believe in Acts 19. A whole household in Acts 10. Etc.

If you go by nationalities, you have the three prominent groups all represented. Jews in Acts 2, Gentiels in Acts 10, Samaritans in Acts 8.

No matter what metric you use...we have more than enough examples IMO to argue that when one gets the Holy Ghost they will speak in tongues. If they don't speak in tongues, I will continue to maintain that they did not recieve the Holy Ghost.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

3. Johns disciples at Ephesus. At this point there is a group of about a dozen men who had become converts of John and were subsequently baptized by him. They were then approached by Paul asking them if they had received the Holy Ghost since they had believed and they had not even heard whether there was such a thing as the Holy Ghost. They heard Paul and were baptized in Jesus name and then he laid hands on them and the spoke with tongues and prophesied. So people who had not even known whether there was such a thing as the Holy Ghost had now received it with this sign and they then knew there was a Holy Ghost to receive and that they had, indeed, received it.

While your post contains a good amount of discussion points, this point immediately flew out at me.
Based on the emboldened, an unchurched person would also fit this scenario. He/she also has not known whether there was such a thing as the HolyGhost. So the sinner upon believing would also now receive the HolyGhost with this sign.
(Not sure if I'm expressing my thoughts well...lol)

Something I find interesting about the Acts 19 account is that as of the time when Paul asked these disciples "Have ye received the HolyGhost since ye believed?" Paul himself did not know that they were only disciples of John.
Paul asked them this question with the assumption that they had believed on the Lord Jesus.
That goes to prove that although a person might have believed on Jesus Christ, it does not mean the person has received the HolyGhost yet.

We see the same example in the account of the Samaritans in Acts 8, who although they had believed on Jesus Christ, they had NOT yet received the HolyGhost.

Now, if we compare Acts 8 to Acts 10, we can see that some people receive the HolyGhost upon believing WHILE some receive the HolyGhost some time after believing. This therefore butresses Paul's question when he asked the ephesians in Acts 19 if they had received the HolyGhost since they believed.

So we see some people believe and have yet to receive the HolyGhost. If we compare scriptures with scripture, we also see in

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God

We can argue all we can, but 1 John 5:1 stays true.

IMO, I think the reason why we argue about this tongue or not tongues is that we forget that Paul asked "...since ye believed?"

So because we some people receive immediately upon believing, we tend to say that is the point they were saved. The truth is some people are still gonna fall into the category of "Have you received since ye believed?" This does not mean they haved NOT been saved (according to 1 John 5:1). It just means they have NOT received the enduement of Power.

On a contemporary note, I personally do NOT believe that those who were praying for the outpouring of the Spirit in the early 20th century (and then received it) were just a bunch of unregenerated souls.

Unregenerated souls do not seek God for his HolySpirit.


I believe we should just ask the same question Paul asked "Have you received the HolyGhost since you believed?" without condemning others as sinners because they have NOT yet received the HolyGhost.

What condemns a person before God is unbelief in the atoning work of Jesus Christ.

1 John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1 John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.



D4T, I was actually thinking about this topic over the last few days...lol

With regards to the baptism of the HolyGhost (or enduement of power) whic occurs upon or after believing on Jesus Christ, I believe that the immediate evidence of this infilling is speaking with other tongues. Based on the accounts in the book af acts where people receive the HolyGhost (not just believing and getting baptised), the evidence was speaking with other tongues AS THE SPIRIT GAVE UTTERANCE.
I believe of the 36 accounts of salvation you are referring to, only 4 (Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 10, Acts 19) actually reference the baptism of the HolyGhost, and all those spoke with tongues.

[Digging4Truth]

Just to let everybody know... I haven't bailed on the thread.

It's a busy day at work and we're singing this evening at a local church... I have to be in service 2 hours away right after work tomorrow... When we get back in Saturday we will be making peanut brittle and I am preaching sunday.

So I might find a chance to pop in between now and Monday and i might not. So... I'll be back... things are just hectic right now.

[KWSS1976]

How about we go this route..not to hijack the thread but how come now days when one gets the holyghost and speaks in tongues no one understands,but the first time they spoke tongues in the bible it was understood by the onlookers...

[NorCal]

No, your view of the Book of Acts is incorrect. All you need it for the first stated occurrence, then you must assume that the rest happened that way. All the 36 reference of someone being saved is pointing back to the detailed explanation of how it happened in Acts chapter 2.

If you did not do it that way, your "Book" would be to big for the world to contain.

Just as in a fictional story, where you are describing a scene. You, describe the place, the people, the atmosphere, etc. However, when the same thing happens again, you do not have to reintroduce that information, because you assume that people have already read about it previously and understand what happened.

You can not expect a extreme detail of every encounter each time a person receives that Holy Ghost. There is not enough paper in the world to do that.

God does not change. If the Apostles and the rest of the 120, received it a specific way, you also must receive it in like manner.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

How about we go this route..not to hijack the thread but how come now days when one gets the holyghost and speaks in tongues no one understands,but the first time they spoke tongues in the bible it was understood by the onlookers...

There are one or more forum members that have heard people speak in known languages.

How many people attend your church are trilingual, or even bilingual in something other than English/Spanish?