Romans 2:6-11 - Page 2

jfrog · #11 05-01-2012, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HRea

This is why Romans is so important to us today. Paul is speaking to us (idolatrous gentiles, having not known the one true God before hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ). If we continue as we were (in sin), sin will lead us to judgment and death; but we have hope through Jesus Christ that we can be changed.

But Romans is not only about being sinners and judgment; it also speaks to salvation, our hope and future, and right conduct.

Romans 5 - Jesus loved us when we were unlovable and provided Himself to be our sacrifice
Romans 6 - What happens to us on the day of salvation
Romans 7 - Our helplessness in the flesh
Romans 8 - You choose to pursue the Spirit or the flesh, knowing that the two are incompatible and enmity.

But how do we reconcile that all are sinners with us being judged by our works according to the passage I cited? Was Pauls point to show that all are damned on their own?

bbyrd009 · #12 05-01-2012, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

You read to much into peoples comments for I have not seen it once here.

?

jfrog · #13 05-01-2012, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

?

have you?

HRea · #14 05-01-2012, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

But how do we reconcile that all are sinners with us being judged by our works according to the passage I cited? Was Pauls point to show that all are damned on their own?

The very definition of sin is transgression of divine law. It is what we do that decides our eternal fate. You will either commit sin or commit acts of righteousness. We are not all damned; but then again, we are not all heirs of eternal life. We will all be judged by God according to our own conduct.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Paul begins Romans 2 by telling those that judge others, that they will also be judged. Just knowing right from wrong, righteousness from sin, is not enough. You must live it. And in living, you will conduct yourself in such a way as to demonstration to God whether you're saved or not.

Ezekiel 18:20-24
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So that Paul's point is consistent with the teachings of the Apostles and Prophets: yes, you will be judged according to your deeds and conducts. We will all be judged according to the same judgment. And, the whole crux will come down to one very important question:

Were you obedience to the Word of God?

bbyrd009 · #15 05-01-2012, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

have you?

Well, I agree it is danced around by many Pastors, and I think HRea's response spoke to this. I had to seek it, and for the life of me I couldn't explain why the NT seems to make this so difficult. So I have to say you have a point.

bbyrd009 · #16 05-01-2012, 12:30 PM

I think it is the difference in a Pharisee, lacking Grace/Love,
and those (rare) people that I am aware of,
who never go to church, wouldn't grasp or care about
our conditions for salvation,
yet I cannot imagine in hell.
Ghandi, etc.

Sam · #17 05-01-2012, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I think it is the difference in a Pharisee, lacking Grace/Love,
and those (rare) people that I am aware of,
who never go to church, wouldn't grasp or care about
our conditions for salvation,
yet I cannot imagine in hell.
Ghandi, etc.

This has been a problem for some in Oneness Pentecost.

Real hardliners insist that if anyone--ever-- was not baptized by immersion using some form of the name "Jesus" and/or titles such as "Lord" or "Christ" and did not speak with tongues, that person is lost and either now or soon shall be in hellfire suffering eternally. This would include all martyrs who have been killed for preaching what they thought was Christianity, would also include reformers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, would include preachers and Christian workers such as Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, D.L. Moody, Mother Teresa, etc. It would also include men like Ghandi which you mentioned.

Since this seems "extreme" some OP teachers such as Clyde Haney, S.G. Norris, G.T. Haywood, F.E. Curts and others taught some sort of "light doctrine" which said that all who served God to the best of their knowledge would make it --not in the rapture or first resurrection--but at the Great White Throne Judgment of the second resurrection. Although usually not publicized, that teaching is held by many pastors and teachers in the UPC who were influenced by these older teachers.

This way, an OP can preach Acts 2:38 as the new birth or the way into "the Church" but not say that everyone who does not embrace that message is going to hell. There are lots of OP folks who don't even realize that the "light doctrine" is part of UPC teaching and practice.

RevDWW · #18 05-01-2012, 04:03 PM

Wouldn't the gist of these verses be that we have to couple action to our obedience? If you say you believe but will not obey Jesus you are not a real believer.

HRea · #19 05-01-2012, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Well, I agree it is danced around by many Pastors, and I think HRea's response spoke to this. I had to seek it, and for the life of me I couldn't explain why the NT seems to make this so difficult. So I have to say you have a point.

No matter how I say this, it will sound hard-hearted and judgmental, although it is not at all how I mean this to sound; so I apologize for any misunderstanding of my tenor and will just lay it out.

Within traditional OP churches, there is quite a bit of confusion (festered by the enemy) about obedience; often, this confusion (and resentment) centers on "standards". Because of this long festering resentment, many cannot separate obedience to the Word and obedience to a man (your pastor), rejecting both as legalism and contrary to grace. Even when certain teachings are found in the Word, this rejection (born from resentment) prevents obedience. I am so sick of hearing "that's your interpretation" when there is no seeking on the part of those who bring railing accusations.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

However, the truth of the matter is that the Lord isn't looking for blind obedience but that we choose obedience; He desires that we desire to go beyond these foundational precepts into a greater walk with Him. We cannot fulfill what the Lord desires for us if we continually focus on the "minimum requirements".

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

This has been a problem for some in Oneness Pentecost.

Real hardliners insist...

Since this seems "extreme" some OP teachers...

Bro. Sam, I've picked just a few phrases from your reply, not to distort it, but to reinforce a specific teaching of Paul, we need to get past the "day of salvation" and "go on unto perfection" (Hebrews 6:1-2) then we will know how to instruct others in the ways of eternal life. Too much focus in the body of Christ has been on the "day of salvation" and too little has been on godly perfection (perfection according to the measuring stick put forth by Paul). After our conversion, we must diligently seek to become more like Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Jay · #20 05-01-2012, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfrog

I also wonder if verse 11 where it says "there is no respect of persons with god" also applies to those who simply believe on Jesus but continue to do evil and those who do not believe on Jesus but continue to do good...

Verse 11 is stating that God does not care about disability, ability, age, gender, nationality, name, social status, or any other measure that we base our opinions on. This includes how 'good' or misguided an individual is. Did He not say that all who do not come through Him and by His method were thieves and robbers, no matter what they claimed to have done in His name? There is only one way, given by the Apostle Peter by which we can be saved, and that is through repentance of sin, baptism in the name of Jesus, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost.