Pastors

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

So....why do we do it? I mean why do we set up one man to "pastor" when there is scriptural guidelines for a five-fold ministry?

Perhaps one man can be given all the spiritual gifts that MTD mentions...but somehow I feel that God means for many men to have these gifts for the church to grow in spiritual maturity.

Why do we do it? Lack of alternatives maybe? There really aren't any churches around that I personally know of that don't operate under the typical "One man show, pay your tithes or go to hell" mentality. Then of course, not everyone is called or equipped to start their own church just to avoid the erronmeous format most churches operate under. You can't be right scripturally if you refuse to go to church altogether like some here have.

So basically, it's deal with the typical format even though it isn't correct and hope for the best results as you can indeed be safe and saved in this style church -or- start your own church because trust me...you probably won't convince your Pastor that he is out of line scripturally by being the only man with any real power in the church.

[The Lemon]

I agree with Nitehawk's post....one question to ask is: "Does the end justify the means?" Don't misread me, i have my opinions about "The System"...but at the end of the day, folks are being saved, baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. Even though there are many issues with the current structure, God is overlooking all that and saving those who are hungry for Him.

Now, I am not advocating that wrong doing is o.k. for the Gospel's sake...I'm just saying that in spite of the flaws, the work is moving forward, and Nitehawk..you are right, you will most likely never convince a pastor that the system is broken.

What I have found is that the strength of tradition is almost unbelievable. I believe in authority, and I believe God does call men to pastor. I do believe, however, that there is an inherant danger in the professional business model of church as we know it today...it was not always set up this way.

At any rate...

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

So....why do we do it? I mean why do we set up one man to "pastor" when there is scriptural guidelines for a five-fold ministry?

Perhaps one man can be given all the spiritual gifts that MTD mentions...but somehow I feel that God means for many men to have these gifts for the church to grow in spiritual maturity.

I think this is born of the same desire that we have for an earthly "king." It is easier to follow than hear.
Nitehawk, you admonish those who have left a congregation,
but how do you know?

[bbyrd009]

"You can't be right scripturally if you refuse to go to church altogether like some here have."

Define "church." While I have to agree that
associating with other believers is Scriptural,
there is a time for everything, and I think what you
describe reflects our time, sadly maybe.

But people are not leaving "churches" because
they have had all the light they could stand...

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Why do we do it? Lack of alternatives maybe? There really aren't any churches around that I personally know of that don't operate under the typical "One man show, pay your tithes or go to hell" mentality. Then of course, not everyone is called or equipped to start their own church just to avoid the erronmeous format most churches operate under. You can't be right scripturally if you refuse to go to church altogether like some here have.

So basically, it's deal with the typical format even though it isn't correct and hope for the best results as you can indeed be safe and saved in this style church -or- start your own church because trust me...you probably won't convince your Pastor that he is out of line scripturally by being the only man with any real power in the church.

Isn't going along with something unscriptural feeding the monster? If the pastor is out of line scripturally, then who gives him this so-called power?

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by The Lemon

Now, I am not advocating that wrong doing is o.k. for the Gospel's sake...I'm just saying that in spite of the flaws, the work is moving forward, and Nitehawk..you are right, you will most likely never convince a pastor that the system is broken.

What I have found is that the strength of tradition is almost unbelievable. I believe in authority, and I believe God does call men to pastor. I do believe, however, that there is an inherant danger in the professional business model of church as we know it today...it was not always set up this way.

At any rate...

So you would rather go along with a broken system?

Yes, I believe God calls men to pastor. But how does the Scriptures define that role?

Jesus had a lot to say about 'tradition' and was not bound to it. He demonstrated that in many ways.

[Nitehawk013]

So...then one should refuse to take part in the "system" at all then? I'm sorry but that leaves only the option of becoming one of those who don't go to church anywhere at any time anymore. Sheep who refuse to honor any shepherd and therefore just create their own little "church world" for themselves. No authority (though they would claim their authority is the Word), no preacher as they only have themselves to preach, no community or family of believers to draw from or lean upon.

Haven't we seen enough of these types here? Do we really want hundreds or thousands more to leave the church "system" and turn into the same kind of Bitter Betty's this forum alon has plenty of?

I think we either continue in the system and try to change it from within, start your own church outisde the system or you end up walking away and falling into the bitter, never go to church again mentality. For the time being...I'm going to keep going to a very good church where yes...the system in intact, but overall it is safe and my family can be safe there.

[trialedbyfire]

I think it's dangerous to assert that "the system" is broken. Everybody has their own ideas about how things should go and their own interpretations. I personally place great value in the role of a pastor a role mocked here by some using the term "one man show". I don't see it that way at all.

[Amanah]

God is still filling people with the Holy Ghost; people are being baptized, and encouraged.

Our shortcomings, whatever they may be, won't hinder God from having His way in our lives.

Personally, I'm happy to have my Church fellowship, Pastor, Elders, Teachers, Musicians, ect. I would feel lost without them to be honest.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

So...then one should refuse to take part in the "system" at all then? I'm sorry but that leaves only the option of becoming one of those who don't go to church anywhere at any time anymore. Sheep who refuse to honor any shepherd and therefore just create their own little "church world" for themselves. No authority (though they would claim their authority is the Word), no preacher as they only have themselves to preach, no community or family of believers to draw from or lean upon.

What makes you think that people who leave the system have no preacher? Have no authority? If the system is broken, then what kind of authority are the Lord's people under?

Why do you think that people should sit in a pew for a lifetime and serve the tabernacle? Are they not called to a ministry of their own? The broken system hinders the work of the Lord.

The authority is Christ. Christ said we are not to have 'kings' lord over them as the gentiles do. We are all to be brothers in Christ.

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

Haven't we seen enough of these types here? Do we really want hundreds or thousands more to leave the church "system" and turn into the same kind of Bitter Betty's this forum alon has plenty of?

Those hundreds or thousands would hopefully have a burning desire to do the Lord's work. Are you saying that if they leave they don't have enough of the Holy Ghost in them to seek God's face and ask for guidance? Or can only the pastor guide them? If that is the case, then the church system did not do it's job of making disciples of Christ to walk in this world.

There are some "bitter Betty's" but I don't think there are as many as the people in the church system want everybody to think. Still...one has to wonder why those few became bitter.

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I think we either continue in the system and try to change it from within, start your own church outisde the system or you end up walking away and falling into the bitter, never go to church again mentality. For the time being...I'm going to keep going to a very good church where yes...the system in intact, but overall it is safe and my family can be safe there.

If you think you are going to change the system from within...you are kidding yourself. And if you think that if you walk away from the system you will end up being bitter...you fell into that trap of fear that comes from the mouth of your authorities.

Perfect love casts out all fear. Perfect love comes from the Creator.

If people walk in fear, then they end up like you say. If people walk in faith of God, then God raises up a church that has Christ as the head and all men and women are equal brothers and sisters.

Ask people who fellowship in the many home churches about the joy in the Lord they have after leaving the 'system'.