Essential Goal of Christianity???

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

so the question is can people throughout history demonstrate the fruit of the spirit without being spirit baptized in the modern pentecostal sense?


My opinion...no. It's also my opinion that the same Spirit baptism as occured on the day of pentecost has been available and experienced without a 1900 year gap. The gifts and callings of God are without repentance.

That said, I have seen many people demonstrate more love and compassion than some of my brothers and sisters in the faith, who have been baptized with the Holy Ghost.

phareztamar, i do not doubt that the holy spirit has been working in the church, my only point is that there is no evidence in written history of spirit baptism with tongues, except for the early church and azusa in 1901. why doesn't augustine, aguinas, martin luther, john calvin, john edwards etc, none of these men mention spirit baptism with tongues. so even though the upc teaches spirit baptism is necessary for salvation, it cannot explain how christians were saved throughout history without spirit baptism. just look it up for yourself.

[phareztamar]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

phareztamar, i do not doubt that the holy spirit has been working in the church, my only point is that there is no evidence in written history of spirit baptism with tongues, except for the early church and azusa in 1901. why doesn't augustine, aguinas, martin luther, john calvin, john edwards etc, none of these men mention spirit baptism with tongues. so even though the upc teaches spirit baptism is necessary for salvation, it cannot explain how christians were saved throughout history without spirit baptism. just look it up for yourself.

Dedicated Mind,

pray forgive my slowness and lack of thoroughness in my response. I'm currently at work, charged with keeping millions of dollars worth of machinery running. (just finished changing out a tore-up stearic acid gearbox). So I haven't had much time to look it up myself, though I will. But I did find an interesting piece titled: CYBERJOURNAL FOR PENTECOSTAL-CHARISMATIC RESEARCH...WATER BAPTISM AND SPIRIT BAPTISM IN THE CHURCH FATHERS by Martin Parmentier. Admittedly, it only centers on the first 8 centuries after pentecost, but it is an interesting read.

I believe that for a person to be born again, they must receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. This is the new birth. The fact that very few in history have experienced this new birth...and perhaps fewer still have written about it, should not shock us. He did say, few there be that find it. But thank you for an interesting topic. GBU

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

The essential goal of christianity is the evolution of consciousness until it fully expresses the love nature of Christ.

righteousness/virtue/good works flow naturally from a nature of love

agree? disagree? comments? criticisms? how does mainstream or conservative christianity measure up to this standard? Is there a different standard?

The essential goal of Christianity is to bring as many humans as possible into the family of God.

The essential goal of every Christian as Christians is to become more and more like Him.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The essential goal of Christianity is to bring as many humans as possible into the family of God.

The essential goal of every Christian as Christians is to become more and more like Him.

[MissBrattified]

I agree with Prax's statement. The essentials goals are to love God and love people, which, in application, is to please God and lead others to Him.

Human beings are capable of being good to an extent and making positive choices, but without God, the "love" will always be flawed.

One of the most deceptive ideas is that human beings are essentially good. Human beings are essentially sinful, and must fight their sin nature in order to be good. Only by walking after the Spirit can one truly deny the lusts of the flesh, therefore anyone who doesn't walk after the Spirit will follow the lusts of his flesh. E.g., their love cannot be perfect, no matter how many supplemental good works they present to the world.

Being "good" doesn't make you godly, it doesn't mean you are filled with God's Spirit, and it doesn't mean you are one of His. If you want to know whether or not you are His, ask yourself whether or not you obey His commandments. Anyone who says they love God, but they disobey Him, is a liar. The love of God is perfected in people who obey His commandments. (I John 2:3-5)

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I agree with Prax's statement. The essentials goals are to love God and love people, which, in application, is to please God and lead others to Him.

Human beings are capable of being good to an extent and making positive choices, but without God, the "love" will always be flawed.

One of the most deceptive ideas is that human beings are essentially good. Human beings are essentially sinful, and must fight their sin nature in order to be good. Only by walking after the Spirit can one truly deny the lusts of the flesh, therefore anyone who doesn't walk after the Spirit will follow the lusts of his flesh. E.g., their love cannot be perfect, no matter how many supplemental good works they present to the world.

Being "good" doesn't make you godly, it doesn't mean you are filled with God's Spirit, and it doesn't mean you are one of His. If you want to know whether or not you are His, ask yourself whether or not you obey His commandments. Anyone who says they love God, but they disobey Him, is a liar. The love of God is perfected in people who obey His commandments. (I John 2:3-5)

not sure what you mean by the bolded. how were people "one of his" between 325 A.D. and 1901 when there is not a single shred of evidence that people were "filled with God's spirit" in the modern pentecostal sense? so gandhi, martin luther king, dorothy day, and mother teresa are burning in hell because they are not upc? can you explain what exactly are we to obey when you say "love is perfected through obedience"? to pursue love and abide in love and do love is to obey and "walk after the spirit". what else is there?

[mizpeh]

To make disciples which entails sharing the gospel and becoming like the Master.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

The essential goal of christianity is the evolution of consciousness until it fully expresses the love nature of Christ.

righteousness/virtue/good works flow naturally from a nature of love

agree? disagree? comments? criticisms? how does mainstream or conservative christianity measure up to this standard? Is there a different standard?

Theosis.

http://www.theopedia.com/Theosis

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Theosis.

http://www.theopedia.com/Theosis

interesting concept, i believe is present in eastern orthodox. can you recommend any books that develop this concept as a spiritual practice? cynthia bourgeault delves in bits and pieces with a mystical spiritual practice, as thomas merton and thomas keating before her. i recently became aware of a catholic from india named anthony de mello. he has a book called "the way of love" which i believe teaches this concept from a christian/indian perspective of awareness/consciousness, but i haven't read it yet.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

interesting concept, i believe is present in eastern orthodox. can you recommend any books that develop this concept as a spiritual practice? cynthia bourgeault delves in bits and pieces with a mystical spiritual practice, as thomas merton and thomas keating before her. i recently became aware of a catholic from india named anthony de mello. he has a book called "the way of love" which i believe teaches this concept from a christian/indian perspective of awareness/consciousness, but i haven't read it yet.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/theosis.aspx

http://www.affcrit.com/pdfs/2002/02/02_02_a1.pdf

http://www.affcrit.com/pdfs/2002/02/02_02_a3.pdf

http://www.affcrit.com/pdfs/2002/02/02_02_sd.pdf

http://www.affcrit.com/pdfs/2002/02/02_02_wr.pdf

http://www.affcrit.com/pdfs/1996/03/96_03_a3.pdf