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  #11  
Old 01-04-2015, 02:25 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Is your worship pagan? (L)

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Originally Posted by shag View Post
Mike, what are your thoughts on what i posted above, in relation to what u just posted?
I'm just curious...
I'm sorta weighing out the difference in God inhabiting us, verses God inhabiting our praise...and what is shown in the nt in relation
Good thoughts!
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  #12  
Old 01-04-2015, 02:30 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Is your worship pagan? (L)

God inhabiting our praise allows more freedom in the preacher and sensitivity to the Spirit for the gifts to operate. I know, personally, when worship is genuine and intense, I preach much easier and God shows me word of knowledge more clearly, etc.

I don't wholly agree with everything the writer said that you quoted, for David praised in song and the devils left Saul.

But neither should someone see praise in everything they read in the bible. And praise should not be to get something as the writer said, but to sincerely worship. But God is attracted to our sincere worship of Him. Anyone likes to be goodly spoken of, including God.
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  #13  
Old 01-04-2015, 03:11 PM
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Re: Is your worship pagan? (L)

If you are focused on "lively praise and worship" you are still at an Old Testament level of worship. It's not BAD, it is normal and proper to praise God... but that's still just Old Testament level worship.

God wants his people to go even beyond that, in the full manifestation of the Spirit and the power of God. It is not arrived at by music or praising or shouting, it is arrived at by faith, prayer, seeking God, and being empty of self and filled with God to overflowing.
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  #14  
Old 01-05-2015, 07:11 AM
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jediwill83 jediwill83 is offline
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Re: Is your worship pagan? (L)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shag View Post
this was interesting:


The Word of God endures forever. Occasionally movements and organizations come unto the scene and fall just as quickly as they rise. In recent times a movement which has gained prominence is the praise and worship movement. Abraham Maslow once said, “If a man is good with a hammer, to him everything looks like a nail.” Proponents of the P&W movement see praise and worship in just about every scripture in the Bible. In my opinion they place a higher emphasis on the subject than the Bible does.

There is certainly nothing wrong with praising God. It is our duty to praise him because He is great and greatly to be praised. Praise is good. However they believe that when we praise God, He comes down and showers us with blessings, people are healed, demons scatter and victories are won. This is where I disagree with them.

God Comes Down?
Proponents of P&W movement believe that when we praise God, his presence descends upon us together with all the blessings associated with his presence – miracles, healing etc. Oftentimes the lack of miracles is attributed to people not praising God enough. They even quote the following scripture for support, “God inhabits the praises of His people.” One would search in vain to find it in the Bible. What Ps. 22:3 does say is that God inhabits the praises of Israel. In the OT when they did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, God had to come down to them. Today we have the Holy Spirit. We cannot have God any more than we already do. There is no longer any need for God’s presence to come down to us anymore than He is already here.

God’s Concentrated Presence?
OK so God is already here, but there is a concentrated presence of Godthat manifests when we praise him. Let it be known that no one from reading the Bible could just arrive at this idea of a concentrated presence of God. This comes from people’s experiences when the praise God. Many, due to emotional experiences and/or crowd effects, feel goose bumps and various other sensations which they mistake for the presence of God. They feel that they feel God. However this is just innocent ignorance. What they feel are normal human sensations that could be felt in many other settings totally unrelated to God. There is a general presence of God in the sense that He is everywhere (Ps. 139:7-9). If there is a concentrated presence of God, it is where the Person of the God Head resides – in those who believe in Jesus Christ. This is the case whether or not they praise God.

Miracles?
It is claimed that God performs miracles among his people when they praise him. Show me the evidence. Miracles and healing in the lives of apostles occurred when God manifested the gifts of healing, not when people praised him. In fact, people tended to praise God after the miracle rather than before, which is the purpose of a “wonder”. In James 5:15 , God heals in answer to prayer not in response to praise.

Demons Scatter?
When Jesus was confronted by the devil, He did not start repeating mantras of praise to His Father. He used the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. Interestingly no part of the armor (Eph. 6:11-18) says anything about praise. According to James 4:7, the devil flees when we resist him.

Paul and Silas
Much is made over the fact that the prisons were opened when Paul and Silas praised God, the spiritual lesson being that when we praise God, our personal prisons are opened and we are set free from many bondages. I thought it was God’s grace that set us free (Gal. 5:1, 2). In Acts 16:25, it states that they were singing hymns and praying there was an earthquake. It did not say whether it was their prayers or praise that opened the prisons, or for that matter whether God just intervened of His own since it was not time for Paul and Silas to die. It should be noted that Peter was also in jail and it was the prayers of the saints that moved God to get him out (Acts 12:5). God answers prayer, not praise. In Jesus’ pattern prayer, praise is an essential part, but not as mystical and magical as P&W proponents would have us believe. Also both Peter and Paul were eventually executed. Jesus told Peter what his fate would be (John 21:18, 19). No amount of prayer or praise would have been sufficient to avert God’s will.

Jehoshaphat
In 2 Chron. 20:22, when Israel praised God, God fought on their behalf and defeated their enemies. Quite a few observations are in order.
1) There were many times when God used other means to give Israel victory, so this praise and worship method was not the norm.
2) God’s word through the prophet (20:14-17) mentioned nothing of praise and worship, but simply that Israel should trust Him. It was Jehoshaphat’s idea that the singers should praise God (vs. 21).
3) What really wrought victory was their faith (vs. 20). Looking at an army approaching them to fight, they were asked to just do nothing and watch God fight for them. That required faith. The same thing is true of Joshua when he was asked to march around the walls of Jericho. It was not the marching, but the obedience that mattered. If God had told him to squat like a duck and say quack seven times, the walls would have fallen just the same.
4) God had to justify himself. It was his decision not to attack Moab and Ammonites in the first place (vs. 10 cf. Deut. 2:9,19), now they were attacking his people during their time of weakness.
5) The people marveled at how God fought for Israel (vs. 29). Most likely the purpose of God working in this manner was to teach Israel to trust Him and to show the other nations who God really was. It is hardly likely that God was setting a precedent that praising Him is a certain means of gaining victory.

Isaiah 61:1-3
Proponents of the praise and worship movement interpret the expression in verse 3, the garments of praise for the spirit of heaviness, as an indication of how the Holy Spirit works in our time i.e. whenever we feel heavy (tired and not feeling to praise God), we ought to praise Him anyway, for it is a demon (spirit) of heaviness that brings about such a condition.

This interpretation is wrought with errors. First of all, it is Jesus who gives us the garments of praise, we don't have to put it on ourselves. Secondly, the word heavy does not mean tired and reluctant to praise God. It means depressed. The spirit of heaviness is not a demon that causes people to not feel like praising God, rather it is a condition of the human spirit where a person has a depressed countenance. It is usually the result of persecution and sorrow. Even Jesus was heavy (Matt. 26:37; Mark 14:33). Thirdly Jesus quoted the first half of this prophesy in Luke 4:18,19 as it pertained to His first coming. The common sense interpretation is that the last part of it, which includes the giving of garments of praise, relate to the Second Coming. When Israel are in the midst of deep tribulation, being persecuted from all sides, and depressed (heavy), Jesus will return to conquer their enemies, establish them in His eternal kingdom, and with that clothe them with the garments of praise. That latter half of this prophesy is a millennial prophesy.

It could be said that that prophesy is partially fulfilled in our time. God does give us songs in the night. In times of depression He gives us peace and contentment. But this if far from the interpretation of the praise and worship movement.

Training for Reigning?
Some say that if we do not know how to praise God now, we would not be able to praise him in heaven. They see this life as a training ground in order to reign with Christ in the next life. First of all, they assume that people in heaven praise God exactly as they do. In Revelation, people did not praise God in a wild eccentric manner, but in an organized and orderly fashion.

Secondly they assume that we will experience a gradual transition from earth to heaven. Instead the Bible teaches an instantaneous transformation (1 John 3:2; Phil. 3:20). We will be drastically and dramatically changed from what we are now. How faithfully we serveGod in this life, determines what reward we get in the next.

We ought to praise God for who he is and what he has done. If we do it in order to get something, then our praise is not genuine. We live in the expectation that God will give us good gifts, but praising God as a formula to obtain blessings is an attempt to manipulate God.
Interesting....
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  #15  
Old 01-05-2015, 07:18 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Is your worship pagan? (L)

In house churches, we have a time of praise and worship. It has no bells or whistles. It's simple, modest, and God still moves.
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  #16  
Old 01-05-2015, 07:39 AM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Is your worship pagan? (L)

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
If you are focused on "lively praise and worship" you are still at an Old Testament level of worship. It's not BAD, it is normal and proper to praise God... but that's still just Old Testament level worship.

God wants his people to go even beyond that, in the full manifestation of the Spirit and the power of God. It is not arrived at by music or praising or shouting, it is arrived at by faith, prayer, seeking God, and being empty of self and filled with God to overflowing.
Any scripture which backs this OT/NT level worship idea? I don't agree or believe it, but it's interesting.
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  #17  
Old 01-05-2015, 11:50 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Is your worship pagan? (L)

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
Any scripture which backs this OT/NT level worship idea? I don't agree or believe it, but it's interesting.
If you look at worship in the OT, you can see they shouted, they danced, they would weep, etc. Emotional worship is therefore part of OT worship. But according to the NT our worship must be "in Spirit and truth", which means it must be in the Holy Ghost - which is not about emotion, but the manifestation of the Spirit, the demonstration of the power of God, because God is (supposed to be) truly present and in our midst.
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Biblical Worship - free pdf http://www.pdf-archive.com/2016/02/21/biblicalworship4/

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  #18  
Old 01-05-2015, 11:53 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Is your worship pagan? (L)

BTW, I am not saying our worship ought to be unemotional. I am saying we need more than emotion, cause your feelings aren't going to heal the sick or speak directly to someone's conscience... that's why we need Holy Ghost power.
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  #19  
Old 01-05-2015, 12:23 PM
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Lafon Lafon is offline
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Re: Is your worship pagan? (L)

An interpretation of a "message in tongues":


"As the time of the end draws near, greater emphasis will be placed upon worship than upon righteousness!"

Received during the Azuza Street Revival.

Surely we are witness to its fulfillment!
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  #20  
Old 01-05-2015, 12:42 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Is your worship pagan? (L)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
If you look at worship in the OT, you can see they shouted, they danced, they would weep, etc. Emotional worship is therefore part of OT worship. But according to the NT our worship must be "in Spirit and truth", which means it must be in the Holy Ghost - which is not about emotion, but the manifestation of the Spirit, the demonstration of the power of God, because God is (supposed to be) truly present and in our midst.
In context, the "spirit and truth" is not about emotional worship vs something else. In context, the woman at the well brings up an age-old argument because Samaritans worshipped in one place and the Jews worshipped at another place. Jesus then responded to that argument by saying the time is coming when people won't argue over a place of worship, but will worship in spirit and in truth.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
BTW, I am not saying our worship ought to be unemotional. I am saying we need more than emotion, cause your feelings aren't going to heal the sick or speak directly to someone's conscience... that's why we need Holy Ghost power.
I agree feelings or emotion won't heal or deliver - only the HG will. I just don't believe there was a shift or change in worship from the OT to the NT.

The lame leaped and praised God. Paul and Silas praised and worshipped God. I don't believe those gathered at the Upper Room just smiled when the Holy Ghost came down. It caused such commotion that people heard and began to gather in the street below.

I believe there should be balance. IMO there is a difference between praise and worship. Praise involves the emotions. Worship goes deeper in the spirit. Both are important in the life of a believer.
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