IHOP - an eyewitness account

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

What's your thoughts, Michael the Disciple?

Who are these investigators? Do they have a Christian foundation or mindset? Obviously there are things believed and practiced there contrary to my own walk. Thats why I dont attend there.

I see big contradictions in the story tho. On one hand they say people are being forced to stay there against their will. On the other hand it says they kick people out that disagree with them. So they are looking for anything...even if they contradict THEMSELVES to smear them.

I assume they are talking about "interns" in the study. People pay to do this. Its like a crash course in discipleship. It seems many young people DO go deeper with Jesus than they were before. Most of them come from Evangelical backgrounds and have a long way to go to come to discipleship. The accusation that Jesus is never mentioned at IHOP is so unreal its unbelievable.

I would hate to think of the things many Pentecostal type Church leaders and their people would be accused of under similar investigation.

Having watched their webstream (for free) many times I have caught myself thinking it "seems" to be a group that indeed is more spiritual and Godly than most Churches I have been around. IMO the worship, that is the music that glorifies Jesus is a notch above anything I have EVER seen among Pentecostals.

As my wife and I listened to the video I posted today we both felt the Spirit and were stirred in our hearts. We have praised the Lord with them at times till our very beings were shaken with love for Jesus.

We have never been moved like that at a Oneness Church unfortunately. Matter of fact after trying to fellowship with several Apostolic Churches in our town weve had to give up. Formalism that is deadening. Music from the Hymn books of many years ago that put at least me almost to sleep and its ONLY when they start the "shockamoo" thing they feel the Spirit is moving.

Couple that with teachings like if a man grows a beard or a woman trims her hair its Hell dont draw me. Couple that with fellowship and vision are simply to come to the "house" and sit in a pew and listen to "hot sermons" I have no interest in them.

I agree with some things at IHOP. Discipleship, the Holy Spirit baptism, the sermon on the mount lifestyle, deep intimacy with Jesus, the post tribulation rapture. They remind me of the Jesus Movement I came up in so yes I love/like them.

I myself am somewhat an "investigator" of Church groups. I have found almost no Churches that seem to be New Testament Churches. I could tell stories worse about various kinds of Churches that would be worse than what was presented about IHOP.

If its true that they read peoples mail and then "prophesy" it back to them they need to be rebuked for it. And yet more for Trinitarianism. For teaching the new birth as "just believe". For teaching the unscriptural doctrine of immortal soul which 90% of Apostolics also do.

So in summation in a world where I have DESPERATELY wanted to attend a Church that is fully operating in the apostles doctrine and the gifts of the Spirit I have to take whatever truth I can find where I can find it. Thats what I do among Oneness Pentecostals. If they believe the truth about something I praise them for it. If they teach error I have to oppose it. Does that make sense to you?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I've read similar accounts about IHOP. I think, whatever the truth, IHOP is severely imbalanced. Too much emphasis on the "prophetic" as if that's the main thing to focus on, and too youth driven and orientated. Young people are easily controlled and maneuvered into mindless submission.

A lot of young people are very hungry for God and are desperate to do a work for the Lord. The church needs this passion and zeal, and young people need to be given an outlet for it. However, young people also don't typically have much wisdom, and tend to operate like gangsters, enforcing behaviors on each other, no different than a clique system at a public high school.

Accounts have indicated that such tactics are normal there, among the "interns", as I believe they are called.

In a way Bro they are more balanced than many. In that they teach a love relationship with Jesus. Deep intimacy. Praying for hours. Praying in the Spirit for hours.

Much of their "ministry" is witnessing on the streets and to the downtrodden something hardly ANY CHURCHES do.

And they are one of the ONLY Churches I have known of that teach the fear of God. They even make songs about his judgment which I dont remember any Church doing.

Dont forget the "interns" are actually a small part of the Church as a whole.

If judged strictly by the word on all points they fall short. As do the rest of the Churches I know of.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Who are these investigators? Do they have a Christian foundation or mindset? Obviously there are things believed and practiced there contrary to my own walk. Thats why I dont attend there.

I see big contradictions in the story tho. On one hand they say people are being forced to stay there against their will. On the other hand it says they kick people out that disagree with them. So they are looking for anything...even if they contradict THEMSELVES to smear them.

I assume they are talking about "interns" in the study. People pay to do this. Its like a crash course in discipleship. It seems many young people DO go deeper with Jesus than they were before. Most of them come from Evangelical backgrounds and have a long way to go to come to discipleship. The accusation that Jesus is never mentioned at IHOP is so unreal its unbelievable.

I would hate to think of the things many Pentecostal type Church leaders and their people would be accused of under similar investigation.

Having watched their webstream (for free) many times I have caught myself thinking it "seems" to be a group that indeed is more spiritual and Godly than most Churches I have been around. IMO the worship, that is the music that glorifies Jesus is a notch above anything I have EVER seen among Pentecostals.

As my wife and I listened to the video I posted today we both felt the Spirit and were stirred in our hearts. We have praised the Lord with them at times till our very beings were shaken with love for Jesus.

We have never been moved like that at a Oneness Church unfortunately. Matter of fact after trying to fellowship with several Apostolic Churches in our town weve had to give up. Formalism that is deadening. Music from the Hymn books of many years ago that put at least me almost to sleep and its ONLY when they start the "shockamoo" thing they feel the Spirit is moving.

Couple that with teachings like if a man grows a beard or a woman trims her hair its Hell dont draw me. Couple that with fellowship and vision are simply to come to the "house" and sit in a pew and listen to "hot sermons" I have no interest in them.

I agree with some things at IHOP. Discipleship, the Holy Spirit baptism, the sermon on the mount lifestyle, deep intimacy with Jesus, the post tribulation rapture. They remind me of the Jesus Movement I came up in so yes I love/like them.

I myself am somewhat an "investigator" of Church groups. I have found almost no Churches that seem to be New Testament Churches. I could tell stories worse about various kinds of Churches that would be worse than what was presented about IHOP.

If its true that they read peoples mail and then "prophesy" it back to them they need to be rebuked for it. And yet more for Trinitarianism. For teaching the new birth as "just believe". For teaching the unscriptural doctrine of immortal soul which 90% of Apostolics also do.

So in summation in a world where I have DESPERATELY wanted to attend a Church that is fully operating in the apostles doctrine and the gifts of the Spirit I have to take whatever truth I can find where I can find it. Thats what I do among Oneness Pentecostals. If they believe the truth about something I praise them for it. If they teach error I have to oppose it. Does that make sense to you?

Yep. Just wondered.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Some of the observations appear to be tactics used in a military-like boot camp environment and I find nothing wrong with those kinds of methods used in order to encourage self-discipline.

I do find it sad that they have been witnessed to read the private musings of their students only to have those private thoughts blasted publicly in a way of trying to appear Holy-sprit inspired.

Why would some attend FSM with the purpose of getting the Message For Salvation shoved down the it throats?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Having watched their webstream (for free) many times I have caught myself thinking it "seems" to be a group that indeed is more spiritual and Godly than most Churches I have been around. IMO the worship, that is the music that glorifies Jesus is a notch above anything I have EVER seen among Pentecostals.

As my wife and I listened to the video I posted today we both felt the Spirit and were stirred in our hearts. We have praised the Lord with them at times till our very beings were shaken with love for Jesus.

We have never been moved like that at a Oneness Church unfortunately. Matter of fact after trying to fellowship with several Apostolic Churches in our town weve had to give up. Formalism that is deadening. Music from the Hymn books of many years ago that put at least me almost to sleep and its ONLY when they start the "shockamoo" thing they feel the Spirit is moving.

How do you reconcile the idea that the people who don't actually know who Jesus is and who have NOT experienced new testament Bible salvation have such a moving, powerful 'anointing' of the 'presence of God', whereas the people who DO know who Jesus is, who do know the Bible plan of salvation and are preaching it, have no presence of God that you can discern?

Does that not seem strange to you?

If its true that they read peoples mail and then "prophesy" it back to them they need to be rebuked for it.

If that is true then it indicates they are a cult practicing witchcraft, passing themselves off as the 'moving of the Spirit of God'.

Did you read the analysis of the instructions for their music and 'prayer method'? Have you considered that perhaps your emotions and feelings are being 'moved' by their worship methods rather than your soul and spirit being moved by God?

I'm just wondering. I personally have no experience with these people. But I DO have experience with mental manipulation techniques, with occultism, with spiritism. And I also have experience with charismatic groups who move in the same circles and use many of the same techniques described in the articles.

I can say, from personal experience, there's a whole lot of unbiblical and spiritually unhealthy stuff going on in the religious world that is being passed off as 'revival' and 'the moving of the Spirit'.

I may not be able to describe it in words in a way that communicates it effectively to others, but when I listen to IHOP and IHOP type 'worship videos' I get a distinct 'feel', and it often is not the Holy Ghost that saved my soul and with which I am very familiar with. Instead it is a sensual, almost sexual and hypnotic 'vibe' that I get.

Just saying.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

And they are one of the ONLY Churches I have known of that teach the fear of God. They even make songs about his judgment which I dont remember any Church doing.

I read your statements, and sometimes I'm like 'we live in two entirely different universes'. No 'fear of God' being taught and sung about in any church except IHOP? No songs about God's judgment? For real?

That doesn't even make sense to me.

[n david]

I've posted my thoughts of IHOP and Bickle in past threads. I wouldn't step foot inside the place. Bickle and his protégé Misty Edwards believe and promote contemplative, new age, eastern mystic stuff.

[Esaias]

Early this morning I watched the live stream from IHOP-KC from the prayer room.

I saw 9 people on the stage, and thee people in the 'audience'. One guy was standing, wearing a hat, listening to the music. Another guy was sitting, zoned out. Another guy wearing a hat was sitting, looking at his phone. That guy sat there for a few minutes then eventually got up and walked away out of sight of the camera. The 'audience' appeared essentially bored with what was going on.

On stage were 8 young women, and a guy (wearing a hat) playing drums in a glass-enclosed drum room. One of the women may have been a guy, he/she was obscured by another person so I am not sure...

They played a four-chord progression in what might be a 'minor key' (?), the same 4 chords, for approximately 25 minutes (about how long I watched). A young lady was standing at a microphone offering prayer for various and sundry things, especially for 'the people in the city'. Her prayer was very inclusive and exhaustive, she hit just about every possible category and 'need' imaginable. Three other young ladies sat at microphones and would occasionally take her prayer statements and sing them back, they would often alternate various statements.

The ones they chose to sing were things like 'Exalt strength' and 'We lean into your glory' and other such statements. Some times it seems as if they were coordinated before hand, their singing preceded the prayer's requests, other times the order was reversed. It appeared to me they had rehearsed this method before (in other words, they are good at improvising together).

NOBODY appeared to be genuinely moved by the Spirit. They did appear to be moved by the music somewhat. It honestly looked like a jazz improv.

My impression of the praying? About what you'd get at a typical Baptist or Lutheran or mainline Methodist church. No power in prayer, nobody prayed as if they genuinely FELT anything. I honestly think these young people at this particular prayer session have never experienced a real, 'old time Pentecostal prayer meeting'. Most of them were not praying anyway, they were just 'soaking' in the music (ie enjoying the mood, doing what is called in the secular world 'chillout').

The lady's prayers were certainly things worth praying for, and I commend the effort on their part to have 'continuous prayer' (something the catholic and eastern orthodox churches strive for as well, and have been doing since the early middle ages). But I do not think their methods are effective or Biblical.

I DO see they have a zeal, they seem to be wanting to sincerely do what they believe God would have them to do. They just do not seem to have a zeal according to knowledge.

Again, I am not understanding how people think something like this is superior to even basic, standard, 'nothing special' prayer service in a genuinely Pentecostal meeting?

I have been to charismatic meetings. Although people act all 'blown away' nobody really was blown away by anything. I have been to Pentecostal meetings however where unrepentant and hardened sinners LITERALLY FLED THE SCENE RUNNING and when I asked them what the problem was they were SCARED, shaken, and said 'there's something in that meeting that I just can't handle, it's waaaaaay too heavy'. I have seen people practically DIE (spiritually) under conviction and the fear of God and wondrously saved, praying through shouting the victory in other tongues, prophesying, magnifying God so much it's a wonder they didn't have a stroke or aneurysm from the intensity of what was happening. I have seen numerous times where everyone spontaneously falls down on their faces in pure adoration towards Jesus Christ and you literally could not stand up if you wanted to.

And I have seen people's LIVES CHANGE PERMANENTLY, as they abandoned sin and selfishness and were DRAWN CLOSER TO GOD and conformed more fully to His Word, as evidenced even years later in their lives.

It is true - a lot of Pentecostal churches nowadays are Pentecostal in name only, it seems, having dried up, leaving only a shell of their former reality. But having a mind-numbing rock concert, light show, hypno-session does not a good replacement make.

I do not understand (well, actually I do...) the emphasis on MUSIC to 'get the Spirit moving' found in almost ALL charismatic churches. Yes, I am aware that many Pentecostal and apostolic churches have made the same mistake (just with a different genre of music). But it seems like mood music has become a crutch, a substitute for a genuine heart-cry to God and a genuine meeting with Christ.

I think I may in the near future take a trip to Dallas to the local IHOP or IHOP affiliated 'center' and meet and speak to the people there. I'd like to pray with them, too.

One of the best ways to get to know someone is to pray with them.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

We have never been moved like that at a Oneness Church unfortunately. Matter of fact after trying to fellowship with several Apostolic Churches in our town weve had to give up. Formalism that is deadening. Music from the Hymn books of many years ago that put at least me almost to sleep and its ONLY when they start the "shockamoo" thing they feel the Spirit is moving.

Years ago, I used to go to church, expecting to receive something. If I didn't get what I was was looking for, I would start looking somewhere else.

Then the Lord taught me, 'I put you in a family, not so you could divorce your family if they don't satisfy your personal wants. Rather, I put you in a family so YOU could help meet THEIR needs.'

It completely changed my entire outlook on church.

Once I got that understanding, the only time I 'left a church' would be if they made it absolutely clear they didn't want what I was trying to bring to the meetings and that in their minds they wanted me to 'move on'.

The last time that happened, we quit going and within a month the pastor had dumped his wife and ran off with some floozy and the church collapsed entirely. God had moved us out of there before the crater erupted.

I look back though on two churches I had left in my early days, and I feel bad. As if I had abandoned them because 'MY' felt needs weren't being met. And I wasn't intentionally selfish, either! I really thought and believed that if I went to a meeting and was not seriously impressed with a 'move of the Spirit' that God wanted me to shake the dust off my feet and move on. That God didn't want me there.

And maybe God was protecting THEM from ME, at that time in my life.

But I have since learned, the meeting is what the people make of it. There won't be any more Holy Ghost in a meeting than what people bring with them when they come.

If the meeting is dead, it may very well be because you didn't have enough Holy Ghost in you to light the fire. (I mean 'you' in a general sense, not YOU personally, brother Mike.)

There is a danger in having a room temperature religion. Lukewarm means 'achieved equilibrium with the environment', in one sense. If one enters a dead meeting, and one cannot 'feel the Spirit' and get lost in the presence of God UNLESS the environment has all the right stuff - the right music, the right preaching, etc... one may just be lukewarm, one may just be adjusting to the surrounding temperature.

We aren't saved to be thermometers, we are supposed to be thermostats.

[Esaias]

Reminds me of an old song... 'Zion, O Zion, What's The Matter Now? You used to get drunk in the Holy Ghost, but what's the matter now? Zion, O Zion, oh what's the matter now?'