My experience has been the opposite.
I know of churches who have replaced the "gospel" with social services and "serving".
Then the next step is to water down the doctrine until the next generation sees no difference between us and the rest of the denominations.
I have witnessed that in my own family.
Excellent post, and so very true. Swing too far in any direction, things will go wrong. There has to be a balance. Great observation.
My experience has been the opposite.
I know of churches who have replaced the "gospel" with social services and "serving".
Then the next step is to water down the doctrine until the next generation sees no difference between us and the rest of the denominations.
I have witnessed that in my own family.
As Amanah said in a reply to your post the two are not mutually exclusive. You can reach out in community service to show the love of Christ without changing your doctrine one single bit.
I think the concept that you just get behind a pulpit and preach sermons twice on Sunday and once mid week and you have done your job as a church and pastor has proven to not work the vast majority of the time no matter how "strong" or "pure" you may feel your doctrine is.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
As Amanah said in a reply to your post the two are not mutually exclusive. You can reach out in community service to show the love of Christ without changing your doctrine one single bit.
I think the concept that you just get behind a pulpit and preach sermons twice on Sunday and once mid week and you have done your job as a church and pastor has proven to not work the vast majority of the time no matter how "strong" or "pure" you may feel your doctrine is.
I agree.
However, I have seen too many examples of what I said to ignore it.
I would also say that our first priority in serving as outlined in scripture is the fatherless, widows and those in prison.
In other words, our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
__________________
If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under - Ronald Reagan
What made me decide to start this thread is that I was looking at a Pentecostal church website. The church has been there for many decades in a Southern town with a population of around 200,000 people. I know nothing about the church or the pastors who have pastored it. However in reading the church history they mentioned that when the current pastor came about 20 years ago the church doubled from 60 to 120 members in two years. Then it proceeded to say that currently the church runs 100-120 members. I thought to myself that it seems incredible this church in a decent sized city would see virtually no growth in 20 years. It made me wonder how that pastor, church, and other pentecostals look at church growth and how they measure their success in carrying out the great commission.
The church I grew up in is the oldest Oneness church in Iowa, the weekly Sunday morning service has typically never gone much above 100 (I believe 150 was the peak, but I could be mistaken), albeit the population of the town is only around 8-9,000. However, a great many daughter works have come out of it. People being taught in the church have then gone to other towns and started new works. Church growth isn't just based on the weekly regulars, but also what grows out of it in surrounding communities or even other works in the same city.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist
Sometimes hidden dangers spring on us suddenly. Those are out of our control. But when one can see the danger, and then refuses to arrest , all in the name of "God is in control", they are forfeiting God given, preventive opportunities.
The church I grew up in is the oldest Oneness church in Iowa, the weekly Sunday morning service has typically never gone much above 100 (I believe 150 was the peak, but I could be mistaken), albeit the population of the town is only around 8-9,000. However, a great many daughter works have come out of it. People being taught in the church have then gone to other towns and started new works. Church growth isn't just based on the weekly regulars, but also what grows out of it in surrounding communities or even other works in the same city.
You bring up a good point. The small church I grew up in was in a small town that had large Army and Air Force bases nearby. Our church was 80% military folks. My dad was the oldest man in the church when he was 52. My pastor was great and outreach to young folks and brought in scores if not hundreds of young military men into the church who once they rotated out of our town populated churches in other locations and in some instances when on to pastor churches.
My pastor did an amazing job of planting and watering but never got to enjoy the increase. So there are sometimes good reasons a church doesn't see steady growth although I think that is very much the exception and not the rule.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
I am not going to call this a "problem" but it is something I have seen.
some church never gets over 150ish. starts out, hits some number and just flattens out.
pastor moves along, new guy comes in and poof numbers go way up.
you got a guy who may very well be a great church planter but not capapble of pastoring beyond a certain level. Some of these guys can flat out get the thing going, have everything in place, but their gift, their ministry isn't to pastor. its to plant.
Understanding ones calling is as vital as anything.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I have wondered about this for a long time. But I have no answers.
A church goes through seasons of birth growth and decline. Where a church is in that process is far more important than last Sundays attendance number.
How many seasons are there for a church ? What impact is there on a change of pastors ?
Some churches that have a pastor for a very long time, decades, do not do well after that pastors leaves. Are churches better off if there are shorter pastorates ? Not sure.
Society also changes. If the group loyalty of the baby boomers does not describe the generations after them, how does that affect churches ? There is a certain level of civic mindedness of those baby boomers and those before them that do not characterize generations after the baby boomers.
I suppose there are other factors about church growth and health that I am not aware of.
Hybrid Mode
