Animals In The Garden

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by diakonos

Was told that the animals talked to Adam and Eve, they were all friends.

This is “why” Eve wasn’t surprised by the talking serpent.

She wasnt talking to a typical Nope Rope. Was talking to a Nakesh. Winged Serpent. It wasnt walking on legs. Had wings.

Think Mulan.

😅

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

She wasnt talking to a typical Nope Rope. Was talking to a Nakesh. Winged Serpent. It wasnt walking on legs. Had wings.

Think Mulan.

😅

The term nakash (sp?) used for the serpent is a cognate to the term "naga" used in India and Tibet (and throughout the Orient) to describe a race of shapeshifting serpent-like humanoids who were often revered as gods and "bringers of wisdom and knowledge".

What is also interesting is God spoke of the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. We know the seed of the woman was a literal biological descendant of Eve. So what about the seed of the serpent? Why do we always assume they are just metaphorical?

On a related subject, did you know the Bible sometimes describes God in terms that could be descriptive of a dragon? In the Orient, the dragon is a symbol of government, especially Imperial government. The Oriental dragon was basically a sea creature or water lizard (like a crocodile or alligator) that could mount up into the sky and fly around. They were usually depicted as holding a pearl (the "pearl of wisdom") and were associated with "yang" in the yin-yang symbol. Yang literally refers to daylight, and thus the Oriental dragon was associated with the sun.

The Bible also uses dragon imagery to depict rulership, not only of earthly kingdoms (like Egypt and Rome), but apparently the imagery is sometimes ascribed to God:

Psalm 17:8 KJV
Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,

Psalm 18:8 KJV
There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Leviathan is a type of fire-breathing water dragon:

Job 41:1,15-21 KJV
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? [15] His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal. [16] One is so near to another, that no air can come between them. [17] They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered. [18] By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. [19] Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. [20] Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. [21] His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

Leviathan is in fact a dragon:

Isaiah 27:1 KJV
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

So we have a combination of water serpent and fire breathing dragon used as a symbol of royal power and authority, and apparently used to describe God. Not that God is in fact a dragon or dragon-like creature, for we know God is also described as an eagle, for example. But it is interesting that the cherubim are described as representing the eagle, the calf or bull, the lion, and the human - four noble and powerful representatives of the animal kingdom. The lion as chief of wild beasts, the calf or bull as chief of domestic animals, the eagle as chief of birds, and man as the crown of the whole creation. All these symbols have been used to represent authority and kingship, yet the cherubim symbolism omits the dragon imagery. I wonder why that is?

Perhaps at one point the nakash or naga (serpentoids?) exercised rulership? Perhaps Cain developed a religion based upon dragon worship (the serpent tried to help us out but that pesky Jehovah character kicked us out of the Garden and made life hard for us as punishment, yada yada yada)? Cain and his descendants are the ones first recorded as establishing cities (governments) and themselves as kings, apparently. So the dragon may have been an ancient symbol of rulership derived from the serpent-cult of Cain and his followers?

Why then would God use dragon-imagery to describe Himself? Apparently, from certain scattered references in the old testament, there may indeed have been "dragons" on the earth, a type of wild sea serpent that perhaps could indeed "breathe fire and smoke". This would have been the "king of sea creatures". But due to the association with the nakash-serpent worship cult of Cain and the first dynastic attempts at ungodly Empire building the dragon became more so associated with rebellious rulership. So the dragon doesn't get a seat around the throne like the other cherubim-imagery does. However, as an actual, natural, God-created animal, a part of God's creation, it would nevertheless reflect certain characteristics of God (as does the lion, eagle, calf, the man, and indeed all created things do). Or perhaps God is appropriating to Himself dragon-imagery as if to say "here is the REAL Emperor of the Universe" as a means of contrasting the would-be "dragon-kings" of fallen men?

Anyways, just rambling thoughts here.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The term nakash (sp?) used for the serpent is a cognate to the term "naga" used in India and Tibet (and throughout the Orient) to describe a race of shapeshifting serpent-like humanoids who were often revered as gods and "bringers of wisdom and knowledge".

What is also interesting is God spoke of the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. We know the seed of the woman was a literal biological descendant of Eve. So what about the seed of the serpent? Why do we always assume they are just metaphorical?

On a related subject, did you know the Bible sometimes describes God in terms that could be descriptive of a dragon? In the Orient, the dragon is a symbol of government, especially Imperial government. The Oriental dragon was basically a sea creature or water lizard (like a crocodile or alligator) that could mount up into the sky and fly around. They were usually depicted as holding a pearl (the "pearl of wisdom") and were associated with "yang" in the yin-yang symbol. Yang literally refers to daylight, and thus the Oriental dragon was associated with the sun.

The Bible also uses dragon imagery to depict rulership, not only of earthly kingdoms (like Egypt and Rome), but apparently the imagery is sometimes ascribed to God:

Psalm 17:8 KJV
Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,

Psalm 18:8 KJV
There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Leviathan is a type of fire-breathing water dragon:

Job 41:1,15-21 KJV
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? [15] His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal. [16] One is so near to another, that no air can come between them. [17] They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered. [18] By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. [19] Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. [20] Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. [21] His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

Leviathan is in fact a dragon:

Isaiah 27:1 KJV
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

So we have a combination of water serpent and fire breathing dragon used as a symbol of royal power and authority, and apparently used to describe God. Not that God is in fact a dragon or dragon-like creature, for we know God is also described as an eagle, for example. But it is interesting that the cherubim are described as representing the eagle, the calf or bull, the lion, and the human - four noble and powerful representatives of the animal kingdom. The lion as chief of wild beasts, the calf or bull as chief of domestic animals, the eagle as chief of birds, and man as the crown of the whole creation. All these symbols have been used to represent authority and kingship, yet the cherubim symbolism omits the dragon imagery. I wonder why that is?

Perhaps at one point the nakash or naga (serpentoids?) exercised rulership? Perhaps Cain developed a religion based upon dragon worship (the serpent tried to help us out but that pesky Jehovah character kicked us out of the Garden and made life hard for us as punishment, yada yada yada)? Cain and his descendants are the ones first recorded as establishing cities (governments) and themselves as kings, apparently. So the dragon may have been an ancient symbol of rulership derived from the serpent-cult of Cain and his followers?

Why then would God use dragon-imagery to describe Himself? Apparently, from certain scattered references in the old testament, there may indeed have been "dragons" on the earth, a type of wild sea serpent that perhaps could indeed "breathe fire and smoke". This would have been the "king of sea creatures". But due to the association with the nakash-serpent worship cult of Cain and the first dynastic attempts at ungodly Empire building the dragon became more so associated with rebellious rulership. So the dragon doesn't get a seat around the throne like the other cherubim-imagery does. However, as an actual, natural, God-created animal, a part of God's creation, it would nevertheless reflect certain characteristics of God (as does the lion, eagle, calf, the man, and indeed all created things do). Or perhaps God is appropriating to Himself dragon-imagery as if to say "here is the REAL Emperor of the Universe" as a means of contrasting the would-be "dragon-kings" of fallen men?

Anyways, just rambling thoughts here.

Keep those thoughts rambling. I think you got something here.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The term nakash (sp?) used for the serpent is a cognate to the term "naga" used in India and Tibet (and throughout the Orient) to describe a race of shapeshifting serpent-like humanoids who were often revered as gods and "bringers of wisdom and knowledge".

What is also interesting is God spoke of the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. We know the seed of the woman was a literal biological descendant of Eve. So what about the seed of the serpent? Why do we always assume they are just metaphorical?

On a related subject, did you know the Bible sometimes describes God in terms that could be descriptive of a dragon? In the Orient, the dragon is a symbol of government, especially Imperial government. The Oriental dragon was basically a sea creature or water lizard (like a crocodile or alligator) that could mount up into the sky and fly around. They were usually depicted as holding a pearl (the "pearl of wisdom") and were associated with "yang" in the yin-yang symbol. Yang literally refers to daylight, and thus the Oriental dragon was associated with the sun.

The Bible also uses dragon imagery to depict rulership, not only of earthly kingdoms (like Egypt and Rome), but apparently the imagery is sometimes ascribed to God:

Psalm 17:8 KJV
Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings,

Psalm 18:8 KJV
There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Leviathan is a type of fire-breathing water dragon:

Job 41:1,15-21 KJV
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down? [15] His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal. [16] One is so near to another, that no air can come between them. [17] They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered. [18] By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning. [19] Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out. [20] Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. [21] His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

Leviathan is in fact a dragon:

Isaiah 27:1 KJV
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

So we have a combination of water serpent and fire breathing dragon used as a symbol of royal power and authority, and apparently used to describe God. Not that God is in fact a dragon or dragon-like creature, for we know God is also described as an eagle, for example. But it is interesting that the cherubim are described as representing the eagle, the calf or bull, the lion, and the human - four noble and powerful representatives of the animal kingdom. The lion as chief of wild beasts, the calf or bull as chief of domestic animals, the eagle as chief of birds, and man as the crown of the whole creation. All these symbols have been used to represent authority and kingship, yet the cherubim symbolism omits the dragon imagery. I wonder why that is?

Perhaps at one point the nakash or naga (serpentoids?) exercised rulership? Perhaps Cain developed a religion based upon dragon worship (the serpent tried to help us out but that pesky Jehovah character kicked us out of the Garden and made life hard for us as punishment, yada yada yada)? Cain and his descendants are the ones first recorded as establishing cities (governments) and themselves as kings, apparently. So the dragon may have been an ancient symbol of rulership derived from the serpent-cult of Cain and his followers?

Why then would God use dragon-imagery to describe Himself? Apparently, from certain scattered references in the old testament, there may indeed have been "dragons" on the earth, a type of wild sea serpent that perhaps could indeed "breathe fire and smoke". This would have been the "king of sea creatures". But due to the association with the nakash-serpent worship cult of Cain and the first dynastic attempts at ungodly Empire building the dragon became more so associated with rebellious rulership. So the dragon doesn't get a seat around the throne like the other cherubim-imagery does. However, as an actual, natural, God-created animal, a part of God's creation, it would nevertheless reflect certain characteristics of God (as does the lion, eagle, calf, the man, and indeed all created things do). Or perhaps God is appropriating to Himself dragon-imagery as if to say "here is the REAL Emperor of the Universe" as a means of contrasting the would-be "dragon-kings" of fallen men?

Anyways, just rambling thoughts here.

What does Cain mean vs Seth?


When you catch a child eating a cookie and they are covering up the evidence, do they cover their mouths or their private areas?


What was covered?


Did God give them a tummy ache or did He curse reproduction?


What garment was placed over Noah after Ham slept with his fathers wife*who was Canaanite btw* and attempted to usurp his fathers authority?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

What does Cain mean vs Seth?

CAIN
kan (qayin, "spear" or "smith," resembling in sound the root qanah, "get," "acquire," Genesis 4:1 the Revised Version, margin, but not necessarily derived from that root; Septuagint Kain): (ISBE)


Seth, Sheth
From shiyth; put, i.e. Substituted; Sheth, third son of Adam -- Seth, Sheth. (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance)

When you catch a child eating a cookie and they are covering up the evidence, do they cover their mouths or their private areas?

What a strange question?

What was covered?

When? By whom? What is this about? and what does it have to do with the subject of the nakash or the nagas or dragon symbolism in the Bible?

Did God give them a tummy ache or did He curse reproduction?

God give who? Who are you talking about? Seth wasn't cursed. Are you talking about Adam and Eve? When they sinned, the ground was cursed, and the man was told he would have to obtain his food by hard labor, and the woman would have sorrow in childbearing and would be under the authority of her husband.

What garment was placed over Noah after Ham slept with his fathers wife*who was Canaanite btw* and attempted to usurp his fathers authority?

Noah could not possibly have married a Canaanite since Canaan was Noah's grandson (the son of Ham) and the Canaanites were descendants of Canaan. So what in the world are you on about here? As for Ham sleeping with Noah's wife (that would be his own mother), while the context indicates such a thing is possible, it by no means indicates it is certain or even likely. The whole supposition hinges on whether we take the phrase "uncovered" to be literal, or metaphorical for sexual activity. The fact Ham's son was cursed (and not Ham himself) does not require there to have been some kind of incest going on. Furthermore, it wasn't actually Canaan HIMSELF who was directly cursed, it was his entire family line, that is to say, the DESCENDANTS of Canaan were cursed with an inferior position to the sons of Shem and Japheth.

So not really sure why this conversation took such a weird turn?

[jediwill83]

Ok, I was hinting that the "sin" in the Garden could have been something other than eating a literal fruit. There was a trail there. 🤣

[diakonos]

Oh, wonderful! So Eve had seks with a winged servant?

Then what fruit did she offer Adam?

[shag]

Originally Posted by diakonos

Oh, wonderful! So Eve had seks with a winged servant?

Then what fruit did she offer Adam?

Had to be a mango. Anyone can turn down an apple or orange…but a fresh mango?
Not so easy.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by diakonos

Oh, wonderful! So Eve had seks with a winged servant?

Then what fruit did she offer Adam?

The same thing the serpent offered? Look, not a Theologian, just a ignorant gig worker. 🤣

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

The same thing the serpent offered? Look, not a Theologian, just a ignorant gig worker. 🤣

The same thing being offered is what exactly?