Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parallels

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Easias had some very good thoughts concerning book of Enoch, Jude, 1 Peter, and 2 Peter. I would like to investigate his thoughts on this subject and hope others would join in with their thoughts. It all started in a thread entitled "You Must Listen To this" concerning Dave Wilkerson telling everyone how tired he is that the rest of Christendom isn't up to snuff. Anyway, Mike the Disciple brought up hell as being the grave, I then asked him what he thought about hell in 2 Peter 2:4. Mike then threw it back on me saying he was limited in its meaning concerning hell, so I explained my thoughts on the word τάρταρον found in 2 Peter 2:4. Easias then asked if I believe that Peter said it because he was refuting Ancient Jewish literature. What Easias presented (I believe) was very interesting.


Here is my first post which was addressed to Mike the Disciple.

Hades was the place of rest, the final abode of shadows, while Tartarus was the place where the punishment fit the crime. The prison of the Titans, and the wicked elite. It is explained in Homeric literature as being as far from hades as the heaven is from earth. This is how the ancient Greeks, Persians, Latins, and Hellenized Judeans would of understood 2 Peter 2:4, due to the word also being found in the book of Job 41:24 in the LXX. τὸν δὲ τάρταρον τῆς ἀβύσσου ὥσπερ αἰχμάλωτον· ἐλογίσατο ἄβυσσον εἰς περίπατον, the lowest part of the deep as a captive: he reckons the deep as his range. The very deep, liar of the monster Leviathan. Tartarus was understood as the place of everlasting torment where no sleep or rest was found for the ones who offended god, in this case it was the Greek/Roman god Ζεύς. The evil King Σίσυφος had to push a rock up a hill and then watch it roll back down. This was done to him because he boasted about being more clever than Ζεύς, so therefore this torment was devised. Ἰξίων was chained to a wheel that eternally turned, without hesitation. Τάνταλος stole the food of the gods, and mutilated his own son to feed to the gods at a banquet to test their omniscience. Τάνταλος was to be punished by standing neck-deep in a pool of water, always thirsty but never able to catch a drink. A bowl filled with fruit hung above his head, but whenever he tried to reach the fruit the wind would blow the swinging bowl away out of his reach. Θησέας even though he was a hero, was also detained in Tartarus. When he was in his 20s Θησέας lost reverence for the gods and together with his best friend, Πειρίθους, decided they would marry daughters of Ζεύς: Πειρίθους desired Ελένη and Θησέας desired Περσεφόνη. First they kidnapped Ελένη, who was only ten (her brothers, Κάστορας and Πολυδεύκης, rescued her). Then they attempted to kidnap Περσεφόνη from the Underworld. Hades greeted his guests and invited them to sit in the stone chair of Λήθη, the chair of Forgetfulness. Ηρακλής later succeeded in rescuing Θησέας but not Πειρίθους. When Peter uses Tartarus in 2 Peter 2:4 it could only be understood as a place of one, eternal torment, two the place of no rest, three the abode, of wicked supernatural beings, monsters, giants, and wicked, and impious men. Definitely not, the grave.

Also the Hellenized Ethiopian Jews used the word Tartarus in their Book of Enoch. An arch angel named Uriel is supposed to be the guardian of the abyss, called Tartarus.

Bump

[Esaias]

Lol! I'm sorry, that last comment just struck me as funny. I apologise, I've been pretty busy lately. Will try to get it wrapped up soon.

Btw, happy birthday!

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Lol! I'm sorry, that last comment just struck me as funny. I apologise, I've been pretty busy lately. Will try to get it wrapped up soon.

Btw, happy birthday!

it was meant as a joke, and also as a motivational point

[mfblume]

Just a note to say I have considered Esaias' viewpoint on this, and am not convinced, but have not totally scrapped it either. I still find it hard to think Jesus and the apostles wrote of things that were blatantly wrong in order to use sinners' own ammo against them.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Just a note to say I have considered Esaias' viewpoint on this, and am not convinced, but have not totally scrapped it either. I still find it hard to think Jesus and the apostles wrote of things that were blatantly wrong in order to use sinners' own ammo against them.

Paul uses Greek philosophers. Paul in Acts 17:28 quotes two poets Epimenides' Cretica and Aratus' Hymn to Zeus. 1 Cor. 15:33 Paul uses a quote from Euripides, or Menandros. Titus 1:12 is Epimenides of Knossos, in Crete. Titus even tells us that Epimenides is a Cretan prophet. This is how they were able to reach others in their world. Not that they were advocating this individuals or their writings.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Paul uses Greek philosophers. Paul in Acts 17:28 quotes two poets Epimenides' Cretica and Aratus' Hymn to Zeus. 1 Cor. 15:33 Paul uses a quote from Euripides, or Menandros. Titus 1:12 is Epimenides of Knossos, in Crete. Titus even tells us that Epimenides is a Cretan prophet. This is how they were able to reach others in their world. Not that they were advocating this individuals or their writings.

I understand those references. But when I read Jude, he sandwiches the reference to the angels losing their first estate between the doubtgers in the Exodus who did not believe they could enter Canaan and the people of Sodom and Gommorha who were judged due to sin, as though all the accounts ere factual. He said that the fall of these angels was judgment just as with the Exodus doubters and Sodom and Gommorha. And he makes no distinction between those stories.

Jude 1:5-7.. I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. ..(6).. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. ..(7).. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Just a note to say I have considered Esaias' viewpoint on this, and am not convinced, but have not totally scrapped it either. I still find it hard to think Jesus and the apostles wrote of things that were blatantly wrong in order to use sinners' own ammo against them.

Exactly!

Like when people say, "I have to get drunk in order to save the drunkard". LOL!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Exactly!

Like when people say, "I have to get drunk in order to save the drunkard". LOL!

Not at all equivalent.

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Exactly!

Like when people say, "I have to get drunk in order to save the drunkard". LOL!

Huh!?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by mfblume

...I still find it hard to think Jesus and the apostles wrote of things that were blatantly wrong in order to use sinners' own ammo against them.

II Peter 1:16-21
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

"to some men the hardest part about the Bible, is because it's so simple" -Author Unknown

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.