Those who never heard about Jesus?

[Antipas]

Here's a rather interesting thought....

[aegsm76]

Ant - I get the feeling that you do not believe in a God.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

All these claims of using Christ's words and others being unable to deal with them. It's taking things out of context, using recommendations to maintain good works that are distinctly said do not impress God but are profitable TO MEN, thereby not being the cause of salvation, and trying to make them the cause. Salvation by works is not what Jesus said. And the personal insults and the admission to cursing and condemning reveal the true fruit of wolves in sheep's clothing.

as i said, it is when you were repeatedly duplicitous rather than admit a point that it then became prudent to mirror to you, of my faith, what you expect a foreigner to sit still for; i have no personal stake in this either way. If you don't think you were avoiding and in denial in your replies, we can go take a look. I guess it is possible there was an answer that did not occur to you at the time, even, although this seems doubtful.

And it seems to me that you do not admit to being unable to deal with the Word of Christ--that would be completely understandable--but rather deal with it quite harshly. Anyway, all of that was simply possible cover for those you condemn, a possible explanation.

You have no explanation for "They are all lost" that allows for personal humility, that i can see, and that has always been the only point i care about here. The rest is certainly a matter of interpretation, and you are free to interpret as you like. If you think Paul provides a surer path, i would not even try to argue.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I guess the Cross wasn't necessary...

which would you trust more, someone with the cross on their lips, or with the cross in their heart? Because both are being practiced, every day, and it seems to me that it is up to you to judge for yourself. But i would note the people saying the same thing seem to have no problem denying Christ when it suits them; one never hears "i do not know for sure" or "anything is possible with God," rather it is "you have to prove that fulfilling the law and prophets = salvation." ok. Understand i never say these foreigners are saved; i say that you lack humility if you insist that they are lost when you do not know, and that you are practicing hate in the guise of...well, i can't say "love," because that has been completely dismissed, so i guess "salvation."

[mfblume]

There are too many passages in the bible to allow for this universal reconciliation of all religions that can't be passed off as errors of translation and interpretation or interpolation.

It's wishful thinking at best.

[shazeep]

again, you don't think the real issue is personal pride, in being able to so confidently condemn someone you do not know? it seems you are staunchly defending "Judge others, and not yourselves" here.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Ant - I get the feeling that you do not believe in a God.

I do believe in GOD. I believe that God can be referred to by many names or titles. He/She/It (because God is beyond any categorical distinction of man) is "The Light", "The Source", "The All", "the Divine Reality", "Great Spirit", "Spirit", and the titles, names, modes, expressions, etc. are infinite. GOD is pure love, light, peace, grace, power, and truth.

I believe that GOD is the light we see and enter into when we return to him after death.

I do believe that GOD has spoken to us through nature, the cosmos, and inspired shamans, prophets, healers, priests, gurus, Avatars, Messiahs, Buddhas, preachers, and seers over the past 100,000 to 1 million years. Ancient myths and religious expressions are largely symbolic of great eternal truths that are universal in scope and are designed to teach us all about ourselves and our relationship to the Divine Reality. I believe that although God speaks to mankind the communication is often clouded by our limited ability to hear and understand beyond our limited human languages, cultures, mores, preconceived notions, interpretations, and understandings. It is for this reason that we see so many different religions and denominations within religions. I believe that Divinity is found in all human beings, and in fact, throughout all creation. However, this divinity has shown through more brightly in various men such as Zoroaster, Krishna, Abraham, Moses, Nanak, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Bahaullah, and others. As is our way with making idols, we also took their teachings and made dogmatic "religions", worshiping the individual or the message instead of truly discerning it and heeding the spirit of its point. We institutionalized each religion and denounced all others, each demanding absolute adherence to their own tenants, even to the point of waging war in the name of the One who is Peace.

When I take time out to pray and meditate, I light a candle upon a chalice. That flame represents the divine light of truth that exists transcendently of all human religion, illusion, and division. And so in that sacred space I commune with the One who is All. I do not seek to have followers for I am to serve all humanity. I only wish to help others see the divine reality that exists before our very eyes. The Divine Reality we deny daily, hourly, even moment by moment for some people. That divine reality that continues to drive people back to their "holy books" and limited traditions in the vain attempt to "reaffirm" to themselves that their chosen path is indeed the only path. They dismiss it as being "of the devil", a lie, a false teaching, an impossibility, a contradiction against their "scriptures" which they have made into idols, or with any other of the countless excuses available. But the Divine Reality is eternal, a constant. And when they die, regardless of religion, they will discover that "GOD" is nothing like they demanded he be. Their "Heaven" will be filled with souls their traditions demanded would be lost. And in that, many will reject the Divine Reality and alienate themselves in the outer darkness where there is indeed weeping and gnashing of teeth because they spent their entire lives propping up their crumbling idols and waging war over them instead of healing mankind and truly discovering the deeper truths about themselves. In that darkness they will weep, wail, agonize, and be in torments. They will blame the All for not being as they expected, no - demanded, he be. But GOD is gracious, patient, loving, and merciful. Eventually all souls will give in and accept the reality of the Light and enter in to be healed.

More souls suffer the agony of what we in the West describe as "Hell" because of religion than any sin or thoughtless deed. Because "religion", every religion, conditions you to prepare for a false reality. Christians expect to see Christ and their Christian-only Heaven, Buddhists expect to see Buddha, Muslims expect to see Allah and their Muslim-only Paradise, and in every faith the "true believers" expect their chosen figure to praise them and denounce all who are not of their given faith. When they see the Light and they see the indescribable eternal glories of GOD's being and the innumerable souls of men from all faiths, races, languages, nations, civilizations, and traditions - they will either be relieved to see the illusion they have lived under dispelled, or they will recoil in horror and self-delusion demanding that it just can't be so. It is a sad thing really. My purpose is only to insert this understanding into your thought processes in the hope that when that day comes, it will make your transition easier. My goal isn't to convert you. Just to prepare you. My purpose is also to help those who might already sense this to realize that they are not alone and that indeed there are words to express what we intuitively know to be the spiritual reality behind all things.

We are of the historic mystics, sages, seers, prophets, and gurus that could see GOD in every drop of rain and every blade of grass. We are the ones who have discovered the transcendent spiritual reality undergirding it all. And we see how senseless division, war, discrimination, and hatred are. But humanity fights this. The ego loves religion as much as it loves any other self-serving pleasure or idolatry. Humanity has yet to spiritually mature as a single people beyond the nursery rhymes of ancient times. But a crisis is coming upon the world. A crisis of our own making. In what might be as few 2 to 3 decades the entire world will change drastically and humanity will be confronted with the reality that man must either learn to evolve socially and spiritually.... or humanity will have to prepare to perish from the earth.

The truth of this reality knocks on the doors of all of our hearts at every funeral and for fleeting moments in time we all feel it.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I guess the Cross wasn't necessary...

Aside from the theological assertions of the Christian religion concerning Christ's cross, did not Jesus ultimately suffer the death of the cross to demonstrate that God is not the narrow, racist, legalistic, bloodthirsty, and vengeful God of Pharisaical Judaism? Did not Jesus warn of that system's soon coming demise? Did not Christ's sacrifice open the revelation of God up to be inclusive of all people and redefine God as love itself? The beauty of Christ's revelation is unparalleled.

But all that Christ and the Apostles taught has become frozen in time. And nearly every 200 to 400 years it is confronted with forces that cause it to change drastically. Even today the vast majority of what we know as "Christianity" doesn't reflect what was originally taught within the first two centuries of the faith. And today, is it not more of a business and a body politic than a truly "spiritual" path for all?

I assure you, the cross was absolutely necessary. But that doesn't change the fact that there is much more to knowing GOD than what the Christian religion realizes.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Wrong.

Jesus is "THE" way not "A" way.

Paul said:

Galatians 1:6-9 KJV I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


And what is the gospel Paul preached?

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV (1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; (2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Preach anything other than this and Paul said you're accursed. His words, not mine.

The one who spoke those words not only abided in Christ, but he also abides in many many others. Indeed, he is THE WAY. And that way has appeared unto all men in various cultures, languages, and understandings. And he will always be THE WAY.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

All these claims of using Christ's words and others being unable to deal with them. It's taking things out of context, using recommendations to maintain good works that are distinctly said do not impress God but are profitable TO MEN, thereby not being the cause of salvation, and trying to make them the cause. Salvation by works is not what Jesus said. And the personal insults and the admission to cursing and condemning reveal the true fruit of wolves in sheep's clothing.

If your faith alone is so perfect, why do you spend hours on this forum seeking to correct it? Is it because others see it through a different filter than you do? And so you spend all this time trying to convince them to embrace the truth as you believe it to be?