The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

[Raffi]

As I read the section, Romans 7:4-6 seems distinct. I would describe this section as the parenthetical part of the chapter. The use of the word "law" is different in meaning than in other appearances of the word. How do we know . . . by the context.

*"dead to the law" 7:4, restates "dead to sin" 6:2, 11
*"delivered from the law" 7:6, restates "freedom from sin" 6:7, 18, 22

Romans 7:6
I think this verse is connected to Rom. 6:10-12.
We have been released from the "law of sin and death", not The Heavenly Law of God.
We have been delivered from disobedience to The Law.
The Law of God is not what bound us. The "law of sin" is what bound us (Rom. 6:10-12). It is to sin we are to die.
Being "dead to the law" means we are no longer under the PENALTY of breaking It. It has achieved it's penalty with Water Baptism, that's why you die to yourself and are raised with Messiah. Under the New Covenant, God gives us the Holy Ghost upon repentance and baptism. This enables us to keep God's Law. How can someone who is dead to sin continue to live in it? (Keep in mind that for me, "sin" is defined by His Law.)

Notice YOU are dead to the law, The Law is not dead to you.

Romans 7:7 We cannot know sin but by The Torah.

"What should we say then? Is the Law sin?" Paul feels he needs to address this question because of the wording of verse 5, since Paul said that our sinful passions had been aroused by the law and produced death. If sinful passions were "provoked by The Law, is The Law sinful?" Paul unhesitatingly rejects that option. Paul here declares his continued belief that The Law is spiritual and good (Rom. 7:12). But when we were of the flesh, sin used The Law as a catalyst in our lives to bring about our death.

Romans 7:7-11
These verses are not meant to amplify the meaning of "law" as used in the immediately preceding verses (4-6). Only to show that The Law is not Itself directly responsible for the imputation of sin, but is merely responsible only that It sets up an "occasion" for sin to work through the "law of sin".

Romans 7:10
"ordained to life".
The phrase "was ordained" was added by the translators.
Should be, "And The Commandment unto life . . ." meaning The Blessing of The Law in contrast to The Curse. If the Curse of The Law is death, the Blessing of The Law is life. this does not mean Eternal Life. mike and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this verse, because he makes a big point of insisting this verse implies Salvation Life. So much of his argument to me seems to hinge on his interpretation of Lev. 18:5

Romans 7:21
"I find then a law . . . that (is) . . . evil present with me."
Obviously, Paul is distinguishing a different "law" other than God's Law. And then Paul goes on to contrast this "law" with "The Law of God" in the very next verse.
And is CLEARLY distinguished in 7:25.

Romans 7:22 "I delight in the Law (Torah)." (Ezekiel 36:27)

Romans 7:23
Paul here is not talking about struggling with sin with frequent failures. He is describing complete and abject defeat. He is talking about being utterly enslaved to sin.

This description is contrary to what Paul describes in both chapters 6 and 8. Paul declared in 6:6 that the Believer is "free from sin" that enslaved us when we were unbelievers (6:16-19)

Romans 7:24
Paul cries out "wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death!" Thus ending his lament against the sinfulness of his previous life.
Immediately following this exclamation, in the next verse, Paul gives a shout of victory that he has finally found the answer to sinful Lawbreakingl.

Romans 7:25
Paul now turns his focus to the ANSWER. Victory is in Messiah, ". . . so . . . I myself serve The Law of God . . . "

Romans 8:1
"Therefore . . ." This word returns us to Paul's exultation of triumph over the law of sin in 7:25.
The "condemnation" is referring again to Deuteronomy 28:15-68.
Here "walking . . . after The Spirit" is an identical way of saying, "The Law of The Spirit". This has freed us from that OTHER law . . . "the law of sin and death" in the next verse.

Romans 8:2
". . . the Law of the Spirit of Life . . . hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
To me it seems clear that the context demands that "law" must refer to The Torah Law.
". . . the Law of The Spirit of Life . . . hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Notice the clear juxtaposition of TWO laws here.
You see, Paul has in mind two separate and distinct "laws". And the only way to tell which "law" he is referencing, we must rely on context.
It also helps to understand parallel idioms:

* "dominion of death" 6:9 is parallel to "dominion of sin" 6:13-14
* "dead to sin" 6:2, 11 is parallel to "dead to the law" 7:4
* "free from sin" 6:7, 18, 22, 23 is parallel to "delivered from the law" 7:6
* "body of sin" 6:6 parallels "body of death" 7:24

So "sin", "death", and "law" are seen to be synonymous with each other.
Contrast that to:
"righteousness unto holiness' 6:19, or
"Newness of life" 6:4,
"Newness of Spirit" 7:6

Romans 8:3-4
Yes, we are to fulfill the requirement of The Law.
(The Law is still relevant: 1 Cor. 3:11; Heb. 8:13)

Romans 8:7
To me, this verse is saying that not being subject to The Law of God is "ENMITY against God".

[Esaias]

Raffi, excellent work!

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Raffi, excellent work!

Too convoluted, or cumbersome, for my agreement.

When it comes to Romans 7, I like this commentary (emphasis added) from John Gill:

John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible

For we know that the law is spiritual,....
We who have a spiritual understanding of the law, who have been led into the true nature of it by the Spirit of God, know by experience that that itself is "spiritual"; and therefore can never be the cause of sin or death: the law may be said to be "spiritual", because it comes from the Spirit of God; and reaches to the spirit of man; it requires truth in the inward parts; spiritual service and obedience; a serving of it with our minds; a worshipping of God in spirit and truth; a loving of him with all our hearts and souls, as well as a performance of all the outward acts of religion and duty; and because it cannot be truly obeyed and conformed to without the assistance of the Spirit of God. To this spirituality of the law the apostle opposes himself,

but I am carnal, sold under sin:
from hence to the end of the chapter many are of opinion, that the apostle speaks in the person of an unregenerate man, or of himself as unregenerate; but nothing is more clear, than that he speaks all along of himself in the first person, "I am carnal":, &c. αυτος εγω, "I myself", as in Romans 7:25, and in the present tense of what he then was and found; whereas, when he speaks of his unregenerate state, and how it was with him under the first convictions of sin, he speaks of them as things past, Romans 7:5; besides, several things which are said by the apostle can neither agree with him, nor any other, but as regenerate; such as to "hate evil", "delight in the law of God", and "serve it with the mind", Romans 7:15. Moreover, the distinctions between flesh and spirit, the inward and the outward man, and the struggle there is between them, are to be found in none but regenerate persons; and to say no more, the thanksgiving for deliverance from sin by Christ can only come from such; nor are any of the things said inapplicable to men that are born again, as will appear by the consideration of them as they follow: for when the apostle says, "I am carnal"; his meaning is, either that he was so by nature, and as he saw himself when sin through the law became exceeding sinful to him; or as he might be denominated from the flesh or corruption of nature which was still in him, and from the infirmities of the flesh he was attended with; just as the Corinthians, though sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, are said to be "carnal" on account of their envying, strife, and divisions, 1 Corinthians 3:1, or in comparison of the "spiritual" law of God, which was now before him, and in which he was beholding his face as in a glass, and with which when compared, the holiest man in the world must be reckoned carnal. He adds, "sold under sin"; he did not "sell himself" to work wickedness, as Ahab, 1 Kings 21:25, and others; he was passive and not active in it; and when at any time he with his flesh served the law of sin, he was not a voluntary, but an involuntary servant; besides, this may be understood of his other I, his carnal I, his unrenewed self, the old man which is always under sin, when the spiritual I, the new man, is never under the law of sin, but under the governing influence of the grace of God.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Too convoluted, or cumbersome, for my agreement.

When it comes to Romans 7, I like this commentary (emphasis added) from John Gill:

I, too, agree perfectly with John Gill. Paul is including ANY BELIEVER, as well as himself, in the state of Romans 7 if one tries to serve God by forcing obedience to commandments.

Coincidentally, I am talking about that very thing in the same section of the forum here called
"Resurrection in Romans 8:10-11 not from the grave".

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Too convoluted, or cumbersome, for my agreement.

When it comes to Romans 7, I like this commentary (emphasis added) from John Gill:

According to Gill and that view which he succinctly states, Paul was then, at the time he wrote Romans, enslaved to the law of sin and spiritually dead. Yet this utterly contradicts everything else Paul stated about a) himself, and b) Christians in general.

A good article on Romans 7 can be found here: https://www.gospeltruth.net/1837LTPC...experience.htm

"In the 20th verse he repeats what he had said before, "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Is that the habitual character and experience of a Christian? I admit that a Christian may fall so low that this language may apply to him; but if this is his general character, how does it differ from that of an impenitent sinner? If this is the habitual character of a Christian, there is not a word of truth in the scripture representations, that the saints are those who really obey God; for here is one called a Christian of whom it is said expressly that he never does obey.

"I find then a law, that when I would do good, evil is present within me." Here he speaks of the action of the carnal propensities, as being so constant and so prevalent that he calls it a "law." "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man." Here is the great stumbling-block. Can it be said of an impenitent sinner that he "delights" in the law of God? I answer, yes. I know the expression is a strong one, but the apostle was using strong language all along, on both sides. It is no stronger language than the prophet Isaiah uses in chapter lviii. He was describing as wicked and rebellious a generation as ever lived. He says, "Cry aloud, spare not; lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins." Yet he goes on to say of this very people, "Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God; they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they TAKE DELIGHT in approaching to God." Here is one instance of impenitent sinners manifestly delighting in approaching to God. So in Ezekiel xxxiii. 32. "And lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not." The prophet had been telling how wicked they were. "And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they show much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness." Here were impenitent sinners, plainly enough, yet they loved to hear the eloquent prophet. How often do ungodly sinners delight in eloquent preaching or powerful reasoning, by some able minister! It is to them an intellectual feast. And sometimes they are so pleased with it, as really to think they love the word of God. This is consistent with entire depravity of heart and enmity against the true character of God. Nay, it sets their depravity in a stronger light, because they know and approve the right, and yet do the wrong.

So, notwithstanding this delight in the law, he says, "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Here the words, "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord," are plainly a parenthesis, and brake in upon the train of thought. Then he sums up the whole matter, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

It is as if he had said, My better self, my unbiased judgment, my conscience, approves the law of God; but the law in my members, my passions, have such a control over me that I still disobey. Remember, the apostle was describing the habitual character of one who was wholly under the dominion of sin. It was irrelevant to his purpose to adduce the experience of a Christian. He was vindicating the law, and therefore it was necessary for him to take the case of one who was under the law. If it is Christian experience, he was reasoning against himself, for if it is Christian experience, this would prove, not only that the law is inefficacious for the subduing of passion and the sanctification of men, but that the gospel also is inefficacious. Christians are under grace, and it is irrelevant, in vindicating the law, to adduce the experience of those who are not under the law, but under grace."

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Esaias

According to Gill and that view which he succinctly states, Paul was then, at the time he wrote Romans, enslaved to the law of sin and spiritually dead."

It looks like you are referencing v. 23-25. Gill gives a solid explanation, and highlights the first person element.

[mfblume]

Gill indicated clearly that the experience Paul described throughout chapter 7 is one that regenerate or unregenearte man will both face if they approach serving God with a law-keeping method.

Rom_7:25, and then closes the account which stood thus in his experience, and does in the experience of every regenerate man; that with his renewed mind he served the holy law of God from a principle of grace, and with his fleshly and carnal part the law of sin.

It is a fact that when ANYONE serves God with the flesh, they will inadvertently serve the law of sin and death because of the force of sin in that flesh. And all the while the mind will be fully willing to serve God instead, but unable to carry that through in the flesh..

Romans 7:25 KJV I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[Raffi]

To your question, It is my belief that David WAS saved even in his dispensation, and he was saved by the Messiah to whom he looked forward to in faith.

I say this because I believe that David's faith met all the conditions of true Saving Faith.
In Psalm 51, a Psalm of repentance and restoration sung by David himself, we have a breakdown almost point-for-point of the Primary Principles of "New" Testament Salvation.

In Psalm 51:1-2, David acknowledges that he is dependent solely upon the MERCY of God. Not according to the Daily Sacrifice, but simply according to God's LOVE. Based solely on his faith in Divine Compassion to "blot out transgressions". David had faith in God's ability to wash away iniquity and cleanse one from sin.

David admits his sinfulness before God (Ps. 51:3-4), but also admits that he believes that God had a plan to redeem him from his sin (Ps. 51:7-9). David fully expresses hope in God for His power and His willingness to cleanse him.

In Ps. 51:10-12, David claims for himself the "pure heart" and "steadfast spirit" that later Prophets would foresee of the NEW Covenant (Jer. 31:33; Ez. 11:19; 36:26).
You see, David is praying to be delivered not only from the physical consequences of sin, he is praying to be delivered from the very presence of sin. He is praying to be saved. His desire is to be changed from within . . . transformed spiritually.

To me this is an incredible portrait of "New" Testament Salvation in the "Old" Testament.

David acknowledges his faith that God will forgive sins as long as the person REPENTS
Consider how meaningful Ps. 51:16-17 is.

And what is more, I believe that Psalm 51 represents David's plea to be RESTORED to the Salvation he already knew was real. I say this because in this Psalm David begs God NOT to remove the Holy Spirit from him (v.11). Yes, I believe David had the Holy Spirit (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2). David had the Holy Spirit unto Salvation and the forgiveness of his sins, but he did not have the Holy Spirit in FULLNESS. But, I believe that David's receiving of the Holy Spirit WAS unto Salvation (i.e., Regeneration).

Peace

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Raffi

To your question, It is my belief that David WAS saved even in his dispensation, and he was saved by the Messiah to whom he looked forward to in faith.

I say this because I believe that David's faith met all the conditions of true Saving Faith.
In Psalm 51, a Psalm of repentance and restoration sung by David himself, we have a breakdown almost point-for-point of the Primary Principles of "New" Testament Salvation.

In Psalm 51:1-2, David acknowledges that he is dependent solely upon the MERCY of God. Not according to the Daily Sacrifice, but simply according to God's LOVE. Based solely on his faith in Divine Compassion to "blot out transgressions". David had faith in God's ability to wash away iniquity and cleanse one from sin.

David admits his sinfulness before God (Ps. 51:3-4), but also admits that he believes that God had a plan to redeem him from his sin (Ps. 51:7-9). David fully expresses hope in God for His power and His willingness to cleanse him.

In Ps. 51:10-12, David claims for himself the "pure heart" and "steadfast spirit" that later Prophets would foresee of the NEW Covenant (Jer. 31:33; Ez. 11:19; 36:26).
You see, David is praying to be delivered not only from the physical consequences of sin, he is praying to be delivered from the very presence of sin. He is praying to be saved. His desire is to be changed from within . . . transformed spiritually.

To me this is an incredible portrait of "New" Testament Salvation in the "Old" Testament.

David acknowledges his faith that God will forgive sins as long as the person REPENTS
Consider how meaningful Ps. 51:16-17 is.

And what is more, I believe that Psalm 51 represents David's plea to be RESTORED to the Salvation he already knew was real. I say this because in this Psalm David begs God NOT to remove the Holy Spirit from him (v.11). Yes, I believe David had the Holy Spirit (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2). David had the Holy Spirit unto Salvation and the forgiveness of his sins, but he did not have the Holy Spirit in FULLNESS. But, I believe that David's receiving of the Holy Spirit WAS unto Salvation (i.e., Regeneration).

Peace

I appreciate your position, but cannot fully agree, since although David surely depended on the cross, though he knew nothing about its details, and he is definitely saved NOW, I cannot accept the idea hew was saved in his lifetime. Not until Atonement was actually made in time and space could David be saved. David's atonement was not available until Christ made that atonement. When He ascended up into heaven and made atonement, then and not before were all people before the cross like David actually saved.

[mfblume]

The following verse goes with lev. 18:5 in showing the law did indeed teach salvation by works.


Deu 6:25..And it shall..be..our..righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments..before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Thoughts, Raffi?