Tithe-vs-Paying Your Bills

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

When did it say there was no more use of the tithe? Sure we don't read about it until Hebrews 7. Does that mean it ended? When did it start back up? Why is God still blessing the 10%? There are a lot of questions we just don't have answers for. We do know the strife in the new Testament was over circumcision, not tithing and eating of foods. We also know that the early church still attended feasts and Peter was rebuked for it.

The issue isn't that we don't have answers for financial practices in the NT church... the issue is that few are willing to do the tedious research into the topic. Tithing wasn't practiced by the NT church. Historians have verified and settled that one. "Tithing" wasn't recommended until the 6th century and it wasn't even instituted by church council until the 8th century. Those are historical facts. Many times we assume that we don't have the answers when in truth, we just don't know the answers. Please note: the custom of "tithing" was instituted when massive building programs were being engaged by the Roman Catholic church. We don't see "tithing" anywhere until around this time.

Interestingly, the silence regarding tithing in disputes in the NT also testify against it's existance in the NT body. Gentiles made issue of circumcision being forced on them. No doubt, Gentiles who had never practiced "tithing" would have inquired about it at some point. None of the Apostles addressed the issue to Gentiles in the Epistles. So, we're left to agree with the historians, tithing didn't exist in the NT church. Generous free will offerings and COMMUNITY BODY LIFE existed within the church. Please understand... they centered their lives around one another. The shared ALL THINGS and they provided generous offerings to assist the poor, widows, and the saints in struggling regions. They met in homes and not massive church buildings. They had very little overhead. No need for a salary for elders... in fact, most took a vow of poverty and the body provided for them with necessities and items as needed. Today ministers feel entitled to a "salary" and benefits. They are often quite wealthy in some churches compared to the average member. Most have misconceptions about the first century church. For example I know a minister who preached about the altars and pulpit of the church in Corinth! LOL The church in Corinth didn't have a building! They were a network of gatherings in various homes throughout the city. He talked about how the letters of I and II Corinthians was read from the pulpit and all kinds of junk. Not so. The letters were copied and circulated throughout the home based groups gathering in Corinth. So, while many might wonder how the church could survive without tithing... they are obviously failing to see or don't know of the "community body life" of the NT church in Apostolic times.

To be honest I haven't studied recently on how the tithe was distributed in the Old Testament. I've always understood that it was for the Levites, of course you may be more well versed on it that I am. However I do believe its important to not muzzle the ox as Paul said and of course that could be done with freewill offerings but some freewill offerings got people in trouble in the New Testament (Ananias and Sapphira) because they committed to more than they wanted to give.

I've seen pastors muzzled by both tithes and freewill offerings. That isn't an issue. If a man of God is a servant and anointed... the saints will care for him. The example of Ananias and Saphira are excellent examples of how serious the free will offerings were in the Apostolic church. If one committed to so much.... they were cursed if they failed to hold their commitment as holy.

Why is it between God and the pastor? To whom much is given, much is required. The pastor has to look out for your souls. He will be answering for a whole lot more than you and I as he has to give an account. That would include how he used our money.

I think you should also research how the first century church was structured. You might be shocked. Each home based gathering didn't have a "pastor" or "elder". They had "elders" or "pastors". Typically the spiritually mature saints "pastored" the flock in their gatherings. It wasn't seen as an "office" like we see it today. It was a ministry of the body to the body.

Your pastor is supposed to flow under the annointing of the royal priesthood and the order of Melchisedek as he serves the people as serving Jesus. There many times the pastor is the voice of the Lord for the flock, just like Paul and Peter was.

Oh boy.... you need to do some serious research on the history of church finances and church leadership in the first and second centuries. A great book that chronicles some of this history with plenty of footnotes for personal research is a book titled, Pagan Christianity. It traces the pagan and unbiblical roots of what most of us assume is normative church. Everything from tithing, to steeples, to pulpits, to the "sermon" (which is also unbiblical in the way it's performed today). It's absolutely faciniating and eye opening. But I warn you. Once you know the history and have done personal research... you'll never see "church" the same way again. You might even become greatly disturbed over the overrall condition of the church in this modern era. It's a lot worse than one might think.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Asking for 10% does not go against scripture. We cannot advance under a ministry when we are not willing to do what is required by that ministry, even if we do not agree. We do not know what the church was bound to as far as tithing because it is not mentioned. We do know however that believers got in trouble with freewill offerings when they committed to more than they wanted to give. 10% is a good model. Of course NO one can outdo the widow who gave all.

As illustrated by the above posting name, should you tithe instead of paying your bills? I think you should do both and with a heart that willing, God will make a way.

I see nothing wrong with the principle of giving 10% if one feels led to in their heart. I disagree with the compulsion and absolute spiritual abuse in extorting 10% from the saints without biblical precedent.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

There is no logic I am using. My own mother tithes and she is always provided for and she makes significantly less. Honestly the widow gave all her living and Jesus didn't say, no you do not need to do that because you are poor. And Jesus and the apostles put out the offering plate so they were asking for money.

Jesus heavily rebuked the money making enterprise of the Temple when he flipped tables. In addition, Jesus heavily rebuked the Pharisees for oppressing and robbing the widows by demanding resources they didn't have. Do your research.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

I'm even amazed you made such a comparison. Look the early church gave much more than 10% to the church. I just don't see how that futhers the argument. Secondly GIVING is a bible principle, taking multiple wives is not.

The issue is the same. Both are unbiblical commands. Do we obey them simply because one in "authority" issues them? Or do we do our duty to hold our authorities to the Scripture?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

And how much did the apostles ask? Lands, houses? Please tell me how this is better than simply asking 10% as a standard across the board so that people don't give TOO much and put themselves in trouble or give too little and miss out on the blessings of God?

You're missing the entire point. First, the initial offerings given to the Apostles was a "startup effort" to provide for the needs of the body. Beyond that, we don't see a total surrender of all goods ever again in Scripture. However, we do see generous giving and communal body life wherein saints shared ALL that they had. All this was done without "tithe or burn" or "tithe or pew" teaching.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Its important to note that before the tithing law both Abraham tithed and Jacob committed that as much as you have increased, I will give you a tenth of it. We would do well to follow his example.
Sorry for the is money that important to you comment. That stuck me the wrong way lol.

Covenental giving at various times as a vow to God, as in the case of Jacob, is seen. However, like Abraham, Jacob didn't tithe as a practice. It was part of a single event.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Covenental giving at various times as a vow to God, as in the case of Jacob, is seen. However, like Abraham, Jacob didn't tithe as a practice. It was part of a single event.

No it was a committment for his life

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I see nothing wrong with the principle of giving 10% if one feels led to in their heart. I disagree with the compulsion and absolute spiritual abuse in extorting 10% from the saints without biblical precedent.

I'm not dealing with spiritual abuse here or extortion. I'm dealing with the principle itself.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jesus heavily rebuked the money making enterprise of the Temple when he flipped tables. In addition, Jesus heavily rebuked the Pharisees for oppressing and robbing the widows by demanding resources they didn't have. Do your research.

Have researched this in scripture. Widows could not generate any income such as people today. Thats why Paul charged the family to take care of widows so that the church could care for widows indeed. Its a different ballgame.

[onefaith2]

I agree with this explanation here if it helps

http://www.gloriouschurch.com/html/T...ment-Tithe.asp

The Tithe Principle
The principle of tithes has been around since Genesis. It was codified in great detail under Moses. Even though many of the details in the Mosaic law have no practical application to us today, we must still extract the principles. Just because it is not discussed in the New Testament does not mean it has no relevance. Whereas we are explicitly told that the ceremonial law has been fulfilled in Jesus (He is our Sabbath, our Passover, our Pentecost, etc), there is no such statement concerning tithes. I believe tithing is one of those matters that was so well established in principle in the Old Testament that there was no need to address it directly in the New.

The principle underlying tithes is that God’s people are to honor Him with the first-fruits of their increase, the first ten percent. In our day, this is usually in the form of money. I do not believe tithes is a law per se. I believe it is a matter of faith. It is walking in the steps of the faith of Abraham (Hebrews 7:9-10; Romans 4:12).

I have carefully and faithfully brought my tithes into the local assembly for over 22 years now and have been blessed wonderfully, both financially and in every other way. I cannot say that I am wealthy, but I can say that I have always had enough to pay my bills and I have always had my basic needs supplied on time and in abundance.

I have taught the tithing principle as a matter of faith ever since I founded our assembly. I can say absolutely that those who are careful and faithful in bringing their first-fruits into the assembly are in general doing well spiritually and financially, and those who only give it when they can afford it are not. They tend to be inconsistent and seem to be always struggling in both areas.

I teach on tithes in our New Believers Class and I mention it about once a year in a general meeting. Everyone who is committed to our local assembly tithes. I have never considered it a “salvation issue” from the standpoint that since we are not saved by tithing, we cannot say that we are unsaved because we fail to tithe. Again, it is a matter of faith. At the same time, without faith it is impossible to please God.

I certainly agree in principle that 100% belongs to God. But I also believe that He has established the first ten percent as a way for His people to honor Him and as His method for financing the work of the local assembly. This is not to say that anyone is limited to ten percent. To think that you can spend everything you have left after tithes in any way that you want is just as much a law-mentality as thinking you have to pay ten percent to stay out of hell. We are saved by the blood of Jesus through the new birth. Everything else we do is merely what accompanies our salvation, not the basis of it (Hebrews 6:9).

I do not believe that all the tithes belong to a single individual (typically the pastor). This false doctrine is one of the strongest forces standing in the way of the acceptance and implementation of biblical elderships (“You mean I have to share the tithes!”). Tithes are for the support of ministry, not a particular individual.