Original Sin

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But nobody addressed the actual issue. I can only say those who feel Adam did not make us sinners perhaps may realize that such a belief demands salvation by works, and they have no answer. But likely they'll keep believing Adam did not make us sinners anyway. Usually works that way. Just sweep that detail of the demand to preach salvation by works under the carpet.

OK: let's see if I understand you.

Adam sinned: and the sin was so great, it "stained" the seed (every man) in him.
Jesus was righteous: so much so that all men by Him (His seed) are righteous.
I believe that is what you say Rom 5, is saying, but please correct me.

What I see:
If we remain in Adam's (as his seed), we will do what Adam did: make ourselves
aprons to hide our sin. This also puts us outside of Christ.
If we are in Christ, we abide in righteousness by Him. Being IN Christ puts the
Church outside of Adam; and we are left only with the propensity to sin: but not
a part of Adam's sin, which was dealt with at the cross!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But who said it was a SIN NATURE? That's my issue. To say Adam made us sinners is not to necessarily say he gave us a sin nature. Again, it's position, not activity.

Christ made us righteous. Is that a position or activity?

Christ's work in making us righteous is the polar opposite, and actually more than opposite, to what Adam did according to Romans 5.

That is not reading anything into it. It is taking it from the writing. how can we read into the picture anything after reading what Adam did is outdone by what Christ did in making us righteous?

So if I understand you, Adam made us sinners - not in "deed", and not "in nature", but "positionally"?

This means that all Adam's descendants are condemned... because of Adam's sin. It seems to contradict the principle that every man shall bear his own sin.

Further it would seem to imply that the cross dealt with our "position" in Adam and not our actual personal sins? Please explain how this plays out?

Also, it implies that all who die as infants are lost because "age of accountability" is irrelevant, since it is about being "in Adam" which means being descended from Adam?

Is this not a case of God condemning an entire family to eternal death simply because they are related to the transgressor?


Finally, how was Christ "not in Adam" if he is the Son of Adam/Man?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So if I understand you, Adam made us sinners - not in "deed", and not "in nature", but "positionally"?

This means that all Adam's descendants are condemned... because of Adam's sin. It seems to contradict the principle that every man shall bear his own sin.

Whatever it does, we have to still learn what Paul stated in Romans 5, and that is my argument -- what Romans 5 said.

Further it would seem to imply that the cross dealt with our "position" in Adam and not our actual personal sins? Please explain how this plays out?

Again, I am not dealing right now with how that plays out. I am just asking what Paul said in Romans 5. First we get what Paul was saying and work out any implications after the fact.

Rom 5:12-19 KJV Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Death came on all the world and even upon people who did not commit Adam's sin. But Adam's sin still affected them to render them worthy of death.

(15) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift.

Here is where we get to the contrasting. We read that the offence of Adam is not to be compared equally to the work of Jesus.

For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

After stating there is no equal comparison between Adam and Christ, we read the reasons. Adam's offence caused MANY to die, but the grace of God is not equal in balancing that, but far more weightier because the gift of God ABOUNDED greater than Adam's effect, because one man Jesus caused the grace of God to come upon many. In other words, it not only matched Adam's negative effect, but went further and grace forgave many,

(16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Another comparison above shows inequality again, saying while one man sinned whose single OFFENCE brought judgment by that single man, the free gift (which we learn is righteousness) dealt with MANY OFFENCES. Compare one offence to many offences. And God took many offences and justified us.

(17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Death was ONE entity that ruled due to Adam's sin. But MANY OF US RULE IN THE SPIRIT NOW DURING OUR LIVES because of the gift of righteousness.

(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And here is where I made my point that I am awaiting a response for. IF ADAM MADE US ALL SINNERS by his single disobedience that none of us committed, then JESUS MADE US RIGHTEOUS BY THE FREE GIFT OF IT THAT HE GAVE TO US.

So, let's reverse that. If Adam did not make us all sinners, then Jesus DID NOT MAKE US ALL RIGHTEOUS. One demands the other according to Paul's context. That means that since Adam's sin did not make us sinners, causing it to be that Jesus did not make us righteous, then we have to make ourselves righteous. And that means salvation by works.

And THAT is the detail everyone's been skirting. THAT is what I need to chat about before my mind can be changed, because I cannot see context allowing us to make any other conclusion.

Forget the implications for a moment. Forget how we must work that. What did Paul say? Did he say Adam's sin made us sinners as much as Christ's obedience made us righteous or not?

Now, the concept of universal salvation has been taken from a twisted reading of all of this, so don't even go there with me. Universalism is simply the result of a uneducated reading of the context, and inability to follow context properly.

So, once again, we'll work it out after. But we have to start with the proper context of this chapter.

You are skirting that context, and saying it cannot be so, regardless of what Paul actually did write, because you cannot agree with the implications you feel it demands. But who said you are getting the proper implications, anyway? But whatever the case, we have to deal with that AFTER we get what Paul said.

It's like you're saying Paul CANNOT be saying what we think, because the implications are wrong. Again, I think you're mistaken about the implications, but that still does not give us license to not study the context and exegete the passage in Romans 5 and learn what it is saying BEFORE we work it out.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

OK: let's see if I understand you.

Adam sinned: and the sin was so great, it "stained" the seed (every man) in him.
Jesus was righteous: so much so that all men by Him (His seed) are righteous.
I believe that is what you say Rom 5, is saying, but please correct me.

No I am not saying that. Thanks for asking. Let me clarify.

I am saying that Adam's sin stained all mankind positionally, and without committing one single sin, we're still lost in Adam. But when we get baptized into Christ's death, we leave Adam and enter Christ and are made righteous positionally. Is not our position one of righteousness, but our behaviour might not match unless we learn and grow in grace?

What I see:
If we remain in Adam's (as his seed), we will do what Adam did: make ourselves
aprons to hide our sin. This also puts us outside of Christ.
If we are in Christ, we abide in righteousness by Him. Being IN Christ puts the
Church outside of Adam; and we are left only with the propensity to sin: but not
a part of Adam's sin, which was dealt with at the cross!

I disagree. Paul said one man's disobedience made us all sinners. It did not say it made us susceptible to the inescapable downward plunge of sin so as to render ourselves sinners by our actions. If that is the case, then the opposite would be that Christ did not make us righteous, but put an effect upon us that would cause us to be able to make ourselves righteous.

You see, that's the kicker! Christ M<ADE us righteous without us doing one thing to earn it. But you are saying we have to earn sinfulness.

Again, we have to look at it in reverse. Did Jesus make us righteous without our input, or didn't he? Was I made righteous as soon as I was saved because God gave me HIS righteousness before I had a chance to do one good deed, or not? I claim yes. THAT DEMANDS Adam made us sinners.

[Esaias]

Paul said in Adam many were made sinners.

Why don't you want to explain HOW that occurs? I am not sure the reason for "let's not go there yet".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Paul said in Adam many were made sinners.

Why don't you want to explain HOW that occurs? I am not sure the reason for "let's not go there yet".

Don't take what I said and put a meaning behind it I never meant. I said first things first. I never said we won't go there. Did Paul or did Paul not say the opposite of whatever Adam did to us caused Christ to d the work to make us righteous without our assistance in any good works? No one is answering that. THAT is my issue to base the whole concept upon. I can't get past what Romans 5 said. We get to the other issues later. But they're only implications and the Romans 5 statements are foundational.

We have to get the facts straight first, and then deal with HOW. The bible does not explicitly deal with HOW as much as it deals with what happened. We need to handle what the bible does actually say before we get into any HOW issues, unless you can show me where the bible says HOW.

[Esaias]

One man's disobedience made us all sinners. I agree with that and always have.

Doesn't mean I agree with YOUR INTERPRETATION of it though, which at this point I am not even sure of what your understanding of it is - since you seem reluctant to tell us "right now". So we both agree that Paul made a particular statement. Now what?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

One man's disobedience made us all sinners. I agree with that and always have.

Amen. But some here do not believe that and I would like to see their views about the context's opposite case with Christ and righteousness.

Doesn't mean I agree with YOUR INTERPRETATION of it though, which at this point I am not even sure of what your understanding of it is - since you seem reluctant to tell us "right now". So we both agree that Paul made a particular statement. Now what?

If we agree on that, then fine. No discussion to be had. The problem I had was with those who claimed Adam did not make us sinners.

[shazeep]

ok, i'm going to start sounding like Clinton here, but it depends upon how you define "make."
Imo, if i were able--or i guess "willing" is a better word there--to live a sinless life, Adam's sin would not condemn me. However, Adam having allowed sin into the world, i am inevitably going to choose it knowingly at some point, just like he did; ergo, Adam has made me a sinner.

[Esaias]

23 pages to see who agrees a particular string of text is actually found in Romans 5????

ROFL... I've been had. lol