Why I Am A Futurist

[Michael The Disciple]

The first Church I went to after my conversion was the Church Of Christ. About 4 months in I visited one of the Elders. Among them Elders are more basic and a Pastor is like a spokesman.

I was taught that night the same doctrine as is now being called "partial preterism". That the events of the book of Revelation had already been fulfilled in the 1st century, except for the coming of Jesus.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Thats funny I read this and it seems pretty strained compared to other interpretations I have heard and or what the Lord showed me about it.

We all can have our opinions, But personally it blows me away to see detailed comparisons and convinced me completely.

[Michael The Disciple]

Something else that seems odd. While Mike Blume never fails to attack the 70 weeks interpretation of dispensationalists on the basis that one of the weeks gets thrown way up into the future apart from the rest.

And yet his own view of Revelation (if I understand it) has all the things concerning the man of sin or "beast" and the judgments that occur happening in the 1st century and YET the coming of Jesus which seems to take place at the same time thrown WAY UP at least several thousand years in the future!

So the partial preterists really do the same thing as what they accuse "dispensationists" of doing.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Something else that seems odd. While Mike Blume never fails to attack the 70 weeks interpretation of dispensationalists on the basis that one of the weeks gets thrown way up into the future apart from the rest.

And yet his own view of Revelation (if I understand it) has all the things concerning the man of sin or "beast" and the judgments that occur happening in the 1st century and YET the coming of Jesus which seems to take place at the same time thrown WAY UP at least several thousand years in the future!

So the partial preterists really do the same thing as what they accuse "dispensationists" of doing.

Not true. There is no specific time provided in Revelation like there is in Daniels 70 weeks, where the second coming is amongst a sequence of verses where we pt a gap in there. HUGE difference.

[mfblume]

The biggest flub ever made is reading about a specific period to time in which six things would occur, with that exact number of years specified, where people throw in a gap of untold number of years with the gap many times longer than the entire period first mentioned to begin with!

There is no such thing, by a long shot, done with the resurrection any any of us. Where is a there a specified number of years given from first century to resurrection where we can twist the text to force in a gap and ruin the whole point of mentioned the specified time???????

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not true. There is no specific time provided in Revelation like there is in Daniels 70 weeks, where the second coming is amongst a sequence of verses where we pt a gap in there. HUGE difference.

Oh really? How about the fact that the man of sin and false prophet are shown to be alive ruling over many kindreds and tongues as well as the armies of the Earth at THE VERY TIME Jesus comes for the marriage supper of the Lamb?

No specified time frame? Its EXACTLY the time frame. Jesus comes for marriage supper and to rid the Earth of the Beast SIMULTANEOUSLY!

Bible > KJV > Revelation 19
◄ Revelation 19 ►
King James Bible

Rejoicing in Heaven

1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

The Marriage of the Lamb

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The Rider on the White Horse

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Defeat of the Beast and False Prophet

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Oh really?

Yes, most certainly. Show me one statement of a time period in exact years and numbers when the resurrection should occur in relation to the tribulation where anybody can insert an untold number of years and delay the resurrection?

How about the fact that the man of sin and false prophet are shown to be alive ruling over many kindreds and tongues as well as the armies of the Earth at THE VERY TIME Jesus comes for the marriage supper of the Lamb?

Where is resurrection anywhere associated with the marriage supper? This has been an ASSUMED association for so long by so many that everyone forgets to ask themselves where the bible ever said the resurrection takes us to the marriage supper.

I read the marriage supper in association with a destroyed Jerusalem HERE:

Matthew 22:2-10 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, (3) And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. (4) Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. (5) But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: (6) And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. (7) But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. (8) Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. (9) Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. (10) So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Where is the resurrection there? I only read of destruction. I read the burning of the city before the wedding, just like in Revelation 17-19 where Jerusalem is burned followed by a marriage supper.

Show me where resurrection is found with the marriage supper? Some point to the five wise virgins. They were taken and the five foolish remained. Is Jesus a polygamist? Where is the wedding ever directly and plainly stated to be related to the resurrection? It's not. But it's so ingrained into people's minds that they are asked fro proof the resurrection occurs at certain points and respond by saying the wedding supper occurs at those points. But they never stopped to ask where did the bible ever claim the wedding supper is related to the resurrection.

Don't show me a wedding supper in relation to tribulation. Show me the resurrection in relation to the tribulation. In plain terms when you do it, too.

Only tradition makes everyone think they're related.

No specified time frame? Its EXACTLY the time frame. Jesus comes for marriage supper and to rid the Earth of the Beast SIMULTANEOUSLY!

You misread. I said NUMBER OF SPECIFIED YEARS. And AGAIN, nothing about the wedding supper is related to the resurrection. Everyone can stand in shock at that thought all they wish, but none of them can provide a scripture that says the resurrection occurs with the wedding supper.

Bible > KJV > Revelation 19
◄ Revelation 19 ►
King James Bible

Rejoicing in Heaven

1And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God: 2For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. 3And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

The Marriage of the Lamb

6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Where is the resurrection in any of the above?

The Rider on the White Horse

11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Where is the resurrection in any of the above?[/quote]

Defeat of the Beast and False Prophet

17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.[/QUOTE]

Where is the resurrection in any of the above?

You repeated the connection so much but you never made a solid connection with the resurrection and the wedding supper!

[mfblume]

Wow, am I ever glad you raised the issue of the 70 weeks!

Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined

A specific NUMBER of years. 70 x 7 = 490. Where's that in Revelation's trib and the resurrection?

...upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

A specific object of people.

to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Specific events are said to happen in the 490 years as listed above. Where is RESURRECTION following tribulation listed with a CERTAIN NUMBER like Dan 9 mentions 490 years with six specific things in Revelation?

(25) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

After 62 plus 7 weeks (= 69) Messiah would come. That leaves one week left. Where is there a similar specific number of years until resurrection would occur in Revelation?

(26) And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. (27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So, in 490 years those six things would occur. And yet dispensationalists, and EVERYONE ELSE WHO SAYS THE FUTURE TRIB IS SEVEN YEARS LONG, throws in over two thousand years between the 69th and 70th weeks -- which amounts to 2,000 years inserted between the first 483 years and the final 7 years -- a gap period that is several times larger than the entire 490 years initially mentioned (!!!).

Where is there ANYTHING CLOSE to doing that with the resurrection by myself?

You exaggerate the contrasts as though saying a wedding feast after a tribulation means a resurrection after the tribulation, and can't actually find reference to the resurrection there at all, compounded by the mistake of not having a specified number of years in between which I insert thousands of years, as if to say I do the same thing I accuse dispies of doing.

Not even close, brother. Not even close.

[Michael The Disciple]

Mike,

I realize you cannot make the connection of the coming of Jesus and the resurrection with your belief of partial preterism. If it were just a matter between you and me I would not be concerned about it. We can believe anything we want.

But obviously others are looking for truth so thats why we labor. So its important.

So in keeping with the TOPIC OF THE THREAD and at the same time trying to by the scriptures prove the time frame (future) of the end time I offer this to anyone interested.

The connection of Matthew 24, the great tribulation and the resurrection of the dead.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be Matt. 24:15-21

Jesus said to understand this look back to Daniel the Prophet. Key point Jesus words it would (the time he speaks of) be a time of tribulation such as never was or ever would be again.

What does Daniel say about that same time?

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Dan 12:1-3

So Jesus points to Daniel to understand the time of great tribulation. He is basically quoting from Daniel 12 in context.

That very same context its quite clear that THE RESURRECTION ALSO TAKES PLACE!

Not thousands of years apart!

So at least as far off as full preterism is they understand this so it forces them to say Jesus came and the resurrection happened in 70ad because the whole of their argument is to prove the great trib happened in 70ad!

So there is the connection. The great tribulation and the resurrection of the dead. They happen as a connecting event. After it is over Jesus comes and destroys the man of sins reign and effects the great miracle of the resurrection!

Revelation puts it together nicely.

King James Bible

Satan Bound the Thousand Years

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:1-6

So yes the great tribulation, coming of Christ and the resurrection all have a time frame which in close proximity.

A far cry from the belief that the man of sin (beast) came and ruled and brought the great tribulation into the world 2000 years ago AND YET THERE WAS NO COMING OF CHRIST NEITHER RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

But it is taught by them the trib is back in far distant history but they are still looking to the future for Christs coming and the resurrection.

The connection is there but they have spiritualized all away so theres nothing left to embrace (to them).

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Mike,

I realize you cannot make the connection of the coming of Jesus and the resurrection with your belief of partial preterism. If it were just a matter between you and me I would not be concerned about it. We can believe anything we want.

The second coming of Jesus IS ALL about he resurrection and nothing else. It;s the coming in Mat 24 that is different though. You need to prove your point by showing me where the wedding is associated with the resurrection, for that was the basis of your argument against my views today

It's not resurrection and coming, like you now change our conversation and distract the readers to think. It's tribulation and rapture, as well as wedding and rapture.

But obviously others are looking for truth so thats why we labor. So its important.

So in keeping with the TOPIC OF THE THREAD and at the same time trying to by the scriptures prove the time frame (future) of the end time I offer this to anyone interested.

Just looking to see if you will stick to your issue with me and show me where wedding and resurrection are associated with each other like you claimed when you said the wedding occurred around the time of the beast and the resurrection being one and the same issue somehow with the wedding.

You accused me of inserting a gap between the tribulation and the resurrection, but you referred to tribulation and wedding, totally avoiding the glaring point that the wedding is not the resurrection.

Now, you can avoid that now, and try to distract the issue somewhere else, but that's the issue you presented to me in challenge of my beliefs. Let's see if you stick to the context you started.

The connection of Matthew 24, the great tribulation and the resurrection of the dead.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be Matt. 24:15-21

Jesus said to understand this look back to Daniel the Prophet. Key point Jesus words it would (the time he speaks of) be a time of tribulation such as never was or ever would be again.

What does Daniel say about that same time?

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. Dan 12:1-3

So Jesus points to Daniel to understand the time of great tribulation. He is basically quoting from Daniel 12 in context.

That very same context its quite clear that THE RESURRECTION ALSO TAKES PLACE!

First of all you avoid the entire issue of the WEDDING connected to the RESURRECTION that YOU initiated in your challenge against my beliefs, thereby leaving that challenge unfinished and abandoned. . And you now depart from the issue of the GAP which you also initiated in our chats. You do not explain how there can be a gap in the seventy weeks. What else will you distract the readers toward if I discuss this NEW issue with you in comparing Daniel 9 and 12 and Matthew 24?

We need to deal with these issues comprehensively and in order. But you start an issue, I address it specifically, and you hop somewhere else without having responded in turn to my response. Well, you've done that many times when we chatted, and would simply run out and never answer some of my posts. Nothing new here, I guess.

The topic of resurrection in Daniel 12 is not found in Matthew 24. Neither is it found in Daniel 7. So, we went from Daniel 7 and Matt 24 and never resolved the issues of resurrection and tribulation. We also never maintained the chat on the possibility of a gap in the seventy weeks.

As far as Dan 12 is concerned, rising from the dead THERE is the issue of salvation, since salvation is distinctly noted in Rom 6:13 to be life from the dead, just as John 5:24-27 spoke of a resurrection both at the time Jesus said it and times to come. I believe both are real. Spiritual resurrection into newness of life NOW by salvation, and physical resurrection in the future at the second coming.

Not thousands of years apart!

That is salvation.

So at least as far off as full preterism is they understand this so it forces them to say Jesus came and the resurrection happened in 70ad because the whole of their argument is to prove the great trib happened in 70ad!

So there is the connection. The great tribulation and the resurrection of the dead. They happen as a connecting event. After it is over Jesus comes and destroys the man of sins reign and effects the great miracle of the resurrection!

Revelation puts it together nicely.

King James Bible

Satan Bound the Thousand Years

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Rev 20:1-6

So yes the great tribulation, coming of Christ and the resurrection all have a time frame which in close proximity.

Revelation does not show that. Nether does Matt 24 and Dan 12 speaks of salvation as a resurrection.

A far cry from the belief that the man of sin (beast) came and ruled and brought the great tribulation into the world 2000 years ago AND YET THERE WAS NO COMING OF CHRIST NEITHER RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

But it is taught by them the trib is back in far distant history but they are still looking to the future for Christs coming and the resurrection.

The connection is there but they have spiritualized all away so theres nothing left to embrace (to them).

You need to show why there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel 9. That is the ONLY basis for a future seven year tribulation, because no where else in the entire bible is a seven year period prophesied in any form. And if the gap is a figment of a dispies' imagination, as I believe has soundly proved to be the case, the entire post trib doctrine falls to pieces.

Now, what about wedding and resurrection? How did they come to be associated?