Your tithes were already paid.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Yall go ahead and disobey God's Word concerning the tithe---as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord---and obey the truth about tithing---and will do it gladly and cheerfully and live with the favor of God upon our lives.

Keep on being self centered and selfish with what belongs to God---you will lose it anyway.

And you keep right on reading things into scripture that are not there.

[mfblume]

Hey, all of you! You're too caught up with MONEY!

lol

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Sean

Your rebuttal is noted, but I will let Dr. Kelly address your comments.

Will you continue reading the book?

It should be read in its' entirety to understand the work that was done.

I still would like you to post me the verse that says "tithing is an eternal moral principle".(this is your PILLAR statement to the world)

I sense prejudice in how other things from previous dispensations were adopted into the Law, which you would gladly say in disannulled, but only a Law regarding money is eternal.

I am sure you can see though my eyes that something fishy is going on here.

The verse I request will seal the deal for you.

If the verse exists, it will make tithing eternal.

If the verse does not exist, then tithe teachers have fabricated this doctrine of tithing on a statement of false premise.

Thanks

Sean,

it has been said many times now that both sides are taking a stand based upon a principle they see. I cannot give you a specific verse that says it is an eternal principle anymore than you can give me a verse that says tithing ceased.

So please stop with the false accusations that I and others have fabricated a doctrine.

You may believe it but that is not true and is insulting. I have not said you have fabricated anything and have remained respectful. I would appreciate the same courtesy.

I will try to continue reading; although, I am extremely busy. I really should not have started this because I cannot give it the attention it deserves.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Sorry I have not had time to respond. Time is short even now but I will give a quick response.
The question asked is where does the Bible say tithes were abolished. This is what the post above is supposed to respond to.

1) Levitical priests abolished - Modern day unpaid ushers etc.
Tithes did not begin with the Levites therefore cannot be abolished because of them.
Modern day unpaid equivalents - How do you know they are all unpaid? Did you create a survey? Did that survey meet statistical requirements for making this assumption or is simply anecdotal evidence?

2) OT Priests received tithes are abolished.
Again this is irrelevant due to the fact that tithing predates the Levitical system.

3) Tithes was only food products.
There was no such thing as currency - literally - until the end of the OT.
see here: http://www.investopedia.com/articles...s_of_money.asp
It gives a brief history but has an advertisement you will have bypass.

4) Again the levitical system.
Irrelevant due to tithes predating the Levites.

5) Again the Levitical system.
Irrelevant due to tithes predating the Levites. Although, most people do not know about the three tithes that were kept.

6) Covenant that prescribed them is abolished.
Wrong. Tithes predate the covenant.

7) Levitical system again.
Irrelevant due to tithes predating the Levites.

8) Same thing.

9) Same thing.

10) Same thing.

11) Temple abolished is the same thing as the Levitical system.
Therefore, irrelevant.

12) Priesthood abolished.
Same thing.

13) Again reliance upon the Levitical system.


Would you continue to send money to a church after
a. The building is destroyed? Yes.
b. The preacher has been defrocked?
c. The workers have found other jobs?
d. The members have all left?
e. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
f. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
g. You have died?

This is again ALL based upon the Levitical system. Abraham predates the Levitical system and tithing was WELL ESTABLISHED in the earth by his time. In fact it is well established as far back as man can go in history.

When you compare Hebrews 7:5, 12 and 18, t is clear that tithing ceased.
Since 7:5 is the first use of "tithes," "commandments" and "law", then it controls the use of the words in chapter 7. Verse 12 says there is a necessary change of the law (of tithing from 7:5). The "change" was not TO GOSPEL WORKERS; the "change" was the annulment of tithing in 7:18.

This is your opinion that tithing has ceased. Ostensibly because you look at tithing very narrowly (through the Levitical system alone).

You believe tithing has ceased based upon the principle that the Levitical system has ceased.
I believe tithing is still in effect due to tithing predating the Levitical system. It is not based upon the Levites.

You could have saved us both a lot of time and just said the levitical system is over therefore tithing is over. I could have quickly responded I disagree because tithing predates that system.

Circumcision and animal sacrifice predate the Law as well. So what's your point? You have yielded ZERO proof that God ever instituted a tithe prior to the Law, or that he ever commanded anyone to do it on occasion. Thus your doctrine is man-made, based on faulty hermeneutics and not based on scripture.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Yall go ahead and disobey God's Word concerning the tithe---as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord---and obey the truth about tithing---and will do it gladly and cheerfully and live with the favor of God upon our lives.

Keep on being self centered and selfish with what belongs to God---you will lose it anyway.

This is really not helping. I have tried to keep attacks out of this from either side and this can cause offense to their side.

Thank you for the support though!

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Sean,

it has been said many times now that both sides are taking a stand based upon a principle they see. I cannot give you a specific verse that says it is an eternal principle anymore than you can give me a verse that says tithing ceased.

So please stop with the false accusations that I and others have fabricated a doctrine.

You may believe it but that is not true and is insulting. I have not said you have fabricated anything and have remained respectful. I would appreciate the same courtesy.

I will try to continue reading; although, I am extremely busy. I really should not have started this because I cannot give it the attention it deserves.

I am trying to open your eyes to something that you and your peers have been proposing as doctrine, with no New Testament Church verses to sustain it.

It is not like the "truthbearers" of our oneness movement, to make doctrines up.

We are expected to be a shining light on a hill.

Well, this light is really a blacklight that shines dimly, with this false doctrine at the forefront.

Our preachers are more concerned of money than souls.

I interviewed a local UPC pastor at lunch and asked him, "would you rather that Jesus have 100 souls in your church that pay 5% or 50 souls in your church that pay 10%?"

He chose the 50 souls.

Let me ask you the same question, Pliny.....

"would you rather that Jesus have 100 souls in your church that pay 5% or 50 souls in your church that pay 10%?"

I would like you to pick which one please...

Thank you.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Hey, all of you! You're too caught up with MONEY!

lol

I propose we use the word TITHE as a metaphor for LOVE in the New Testament Church, okay?


I knew you would like that one, Mike!

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Pliny, you claim that tithing is an eternal principle.

I must ask. Can you tell me the positions of the people had that received tithes before the law?

We know of Melchidizik and he was a Priest.
Are there any others?

I have documented this before. here we go again...

By the time of Melchizedek tithing was well established throughout the world. No one told Abraham to tithe. The question is why?

This is what I have sought to understand. I have an opinion and here it goes. Just as the many flood stories of multiple nations imply a common source I believe that the commonality of tithing among multitudes of ancient civilizations imply a common source.

The record of who and when it was established is lost due to the ravages of time. However, I believe there are hints. The Garden of Eden reveals a principle of managing something that belongs to God. The forbidden fruit. There was nothing poisonous about the fruit other than disobedience. It was good for food but it was God's portion. Adam and Eve were to cultivate it but could not partake of it. I see this same principle in tithing.

The narrative of Cain and Able is, in my opinion, about tithing. The LXX indicates that Cain had not rightly divided his offering (tithing is a division by 10). If I recall correctly the Hebrew is different from the typical offerings used elsewhere. Thus, I will not say it is a fact but I will say I lean towards this being the case.

If true it makes everything else make sense. It would mean tithing was established from the beginning and when the Tower of babel happened people took with them this custom but was applied to their deities.

Not sure if this is what you are after but there it is.

You like many others may disagree. that is your prerogative.

I have not heard any one from the other side offer any plausible explanation for this phenomenon.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

If tithing is a eternal moral law because it predates the law given to Moses, then so does the observance of the Sabbath. The Sabbath being holy was instituted at the 7th day when God rested. We can't pick and choose through the law what stays and what goes. All the law was fulfilled and is still being fulfilled in Jesus. I believe tithing according to the law was fulfilled in Jesus. Tithing is a good financial stewardship plan, but I don't see it as a law that passed on to the NT church.

Money is from a corrupt system of which I feel God finds no pleasure. The reason that God commanded Israel to pay the Holy tithe from the Holy land (IMO) was that money is not a system(Mammon) that God wanted for humanity. We should be good stewards here on this earth with whatever monetary system we have, but must not be caught up in this world systems.Money is not what God is interested in, but he desires the hearts of men.

When Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's, He was not saying pay your taxes and pay your tithes. He was saying give Caesar his portion of that monetary system that the earthly government demands and give to God from the system he demands. The system God operates in is Spiritual and not carnal. Jesus was not interested in a percentage of people's gross profits, but he desired to redeem the lost unto himself.

If you truly belong to God you will generously give of ever facet of your life including this monetary system. If you legalistically teach mandatory tithing a NT law I feel you are going beyond the scripture. I am a tithe and offerings believer and teacher, but I don't see tithes and offerings in the mandatory way that some here are teaching it.

IMO the Sabbath rest is a type of the Holy Ghost where we enter the rest of God and are no longer required to "work" under the Law. Like circumcision the Sabbath has a NT expression.

I do appreciate that most people on the other side recognize and teach the need for freewill offerings.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Hey, all of you! You're too caught up with MONEY!

lol

No. I am caught up with defending my faith. I did not start this.