The Thief on the Cross

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by jfrog

NOPE. That is not your point. Your point has been that a man is born again when he is baptized and receives the Holy Ghost and saying that being born of God is not an event contradicts your position because you view the new birth as being completed at baptism and reception of the Holy Ghost. Of course I think you were trying to say that there are things we should go on and do after being born again and with that I agree, but I would not have chosen your wording that being born of God isn't just an event because I think it really is just an event and a very amazing one at that!
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Being born of God isn't just an event, its a work that continues throughout our life.. it begins at repentance and is further solidifed with baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost but the WORK of the new birth in you continues. No that doesn't contradict my position. That is my position.

Originally Posted by jfrog

Further, using the 1 John verse about those that sinneth not being born of God in the way you are also contradicts your position that baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost is what accomplishes the new birth because you call baptized and spirit filled believers born again even if they sin. So I'll make you a deal. Start preaching that baptized and Spirit filled believers who sin aren't born again and I won't call you a hypocrite for using that verse against my doctrine but not applying it to your own.
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Call me whatever you like. Baptism and the HG helps us be free the power of sin. It DOES NOT prevent us from sinning but helps us not to CONTINUE in sin which is what the verse is talking about.

Originally Posted by jfrog

I wanted to add that if you find yourself struggling for explanation of 1 John 5:18 which doesn't contradict your view that being baptized and receiving the Holy Ghost is the new birth then ask and I'll happily give you an explanation that will allow 1 John 5:18 to not contradict your view or mine.
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You have quite an imagination or totally misunderstanding me. I'm not struggling with that verse. I simply pointed out the verse because believing is the not the only mark of being born again.

But if you want to add an explanation, I'll be glad to read it. I have no conflict with the way I read it now.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

I would argue that all sin is not a mistake. It is your control over it.
I was taught that the passage of not sinning after being born of God is referring to those that are higher on the scale ( if you want to call it ) in not sinning, because of the power of God. But, even though they sin, they must ask forgiveness before "night falls" as a figure of speech. Basically, God will not allow you to "sleep on it." Believe me, I've woke up crying while it was still dark outside... and that's when I realized what he meant.

Most commentaries teach it means to continue in sin, which is similar to what you are describing. The new birth change will not let you continue in sin, if so that you walk after the Spirit.

[Monarchianism]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Most commentaries teach it means to continue in sin, which is similar to what you are describing. The new birth change will not let you continue in sin, if so that you walk after the Spirit.

I know that it keeps you from continuing in it, but that doesn't stop the Devil from tempting you.
I'm saying that If you do after you receive it, it counts against you. It's whether or not your good works out-weigh your bad works.
God hates sin. When you ask for forgiveness it goes back to Jesus, because he died for sin.
There is a difference in continuing to sin over and over ( perhaps because you feel like it ), and struggling with sin.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

I never said such a thing.
I'm saying that If you do after you receive it, it counts against you.
It's whether or not your good works out-weigh your bad works.
God hates sin. When you ask for forgiveness it goes back to Jesus, because he died for sin.
There is a difference in continuing to sin over and over, and struggling with sin.

that what I mean continuing in sin. i'm not talking about pre new birth but aftewards.. when a person falls into sin after being born again in their lifetime.. I don't believe the new birth will allow a person to continue unconvicted.

[Monarchianism]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

that what I mean continuing in sin. i'm not talking about pre new birth but aftewards.. when a person falls into sin after being born again in their lifetime.. I don't believe the new birth will allow a person to continue unconvicted.

Yes, yes! I'm glad you see.

Acts 2:38 is what gives people the opportunity to have a "clean-slate."
After the baptism, every sin you've committed in your past will not be counted against you.
However, after that, if you sin ( whether purposefully or if you struggle ), your future sins will be accounted for.

So, we are on the same page now.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

that what I mean continuing in sin. i'm not talking about pre new birth but aftewards.. when a person falls into sin after being born again in their lifetime.. I don't believe the new birth will allow a person to continue unconvicted.

According to you the new birth is not an event but here you say "after being born again" which implies that the event of the new birth happened at some time in the past. So can you please get your story straight?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Monarchianism

Now you have overly confused me on where you stand.
And yes, I knew it was to already born-again Christians.
I guess we will end it here and move on to another subject?

We might as well move on to another subject. I don't feel like anyone has even attempted to understand or discuss the points I've brought up. So I suppose I don't see the use in continuing on this topic anymore.

[deacon blues]

When we are saved we become children of God. The consequences for sin thereafter are vastly different than for those who are the children of darkness. The Lord chastens those He loves, but salvation given is not just for my past but also for my present and future.

I'm forgiven of the sins of my future as well as my past. Salvation is a gift, unmerited and undeserved. My relationship with Jesus is not a tightrope walk. I am in covenant with Him. I need not live in fear and dread because of my "body of death". We groan within ourselves because our bodies are the last portion of us to be redeemed. The adoption will take place when Jesus returns.

Those of you trying to "earn your salvation" can continue living under the law if you choose, but there's only one result of that kind of relationship with God. Grace sets you free. Grace releases you to live for Jesus based on relationship rather than performance. Grace is truly lifechanging, empowering and liberating. I pity those of you who embrace legalism over liberty. I truly feel sorry for you.

[Stephanas]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

When we are saved we become children of God. The consequences for sin thereafter are vastly different than for those who are the children of darkness. The Lord chastens those He loves, but salvation given is not just for my past but also for my present and future.

I'm forgiven of the sins of my future as well as my past. Salvation is a gift, unmerited and undeserved. My relationship with Jesus is not a tightrope walk. I am in covenant with Him. I need not live in fear and dread because of my "body of death". We groan within ourselves because our bodies are the last portion of us to be redeemed. The adoption will take place when Jesus returns.

Those of you trying to "earn your salvation" can continue living under the law if you choose, but there's only one result of that kind of relationship with God. Grace sets you free. Grace releases you to live for Jesus based on relationship rather than performance. Grace is truly lifechanging, empowering and liberating. I pity those of you who embrace legalism over liberty. I truly feel sorry for you.

Interesting.

An honest question: Are you a Calvinist?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

We might as well move on to another subject. I don't feel like anyone has even attempted to understand or discuss the points I've brought up. So I suppose I don't see the use in continuing on this topic anymore.

Since when have forums become places where the majority seriously considers what an opposing view proposes?