Original Sin

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, i'm going to start sounding like Clinton here, but it depends upon how you define "make."
Imo, if i were able--or i guess "willing" is a better word there--to live a sinless life, Adam's sin would not condemn me. However, Adam having allowed sin into the world, i am inevitably going to choose it knowingly at some point, just like he did; ergo, Adam has made me a sinner.

What's your thoughts on Christ having made us righteous to more than counter Adam having made us sinners? Can you see how that if Adam did not make us sinners then Christ did not make us righteous?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen. But some here do not believe that and I would like to see their views about the context's opposite case with Christ and righteousness.
If we agree on that, then fine. No discussion to be had. The problem I had was with those who claimed Adam did not make us sinners.

Beloved, you have neglected the argument of "original sin" AFTER the cross!
You seem to lump the sinners since Adam with those made righteous in Christ.
You say that "we", which includes all men born after Adam, were made righteous
by the Lord 's sacrifice. I disagree. Only those IN Christ are righteous. Granted
that EVERYONE, even Judas Iscariot, were offered remission of sins: not everyone,
however, has received the Gift.

Now, if children are sinners, and die before they receive the gospel, will they
be cast into the lake of fire? Or perhaps you believe in a "purgatory"? Or when
do you believe that ALL refers only to those at the age of accountability?

The scriptures declare that by "...disobedience many were made [/I]declared sinners."
But it was NOT after the similitude of Adam; for the Lord KNEW we would all sin,
just as He knew Adam would eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Me thinks you got lost when you entered the "positional" doctrine.

[shazeep]

hmm it was my understanding that OT saints were positionally availed of Christ? Isn't there Scripture to this effect?But perhaps i am misunderstanding you intention there

Originally Posted by Esaias

23 pages to see who agrees a particular string of text is actually found in Romans 5????

ROFL... I've been had. lol

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

What's your thoughts on Christ having made us righteous to more than counter Adam having made us sinners? Can you see how that if Adam did not make us sinners then Christ did not make us righteous?

yes, but it took awhile, and i'm convinced the doctrine only made it harder. it first needed to be accomplished to show me that i--who had a carefully cultivated inferiority complex--was a sinner, although i followed the rules. i don't remember ever being or saying "sorry" in my life at that point so, i agree with you, even tho i think the doctrine of OS plays out incorrectly, and runs counter to its stated purpose, as designed, thus making true acceptance of Christ more difficult. A verbal declaration at an altar call is now deemed sufficient to call one "saved." etc.

we don't begin to realize our sinful state until our experiences catch up with us, so to speak, and we see how we might unintentionally reflect "eating and wiping our mouths..." etc, the point being that even now i am evil, and a sinner, in ways that i do not yet grasp, because of Adam's sin, allowing sin into the world. The simple act of walking down the street eating an ice cream cone becomes a sin, if i must even figuratively step over someone homeless and starving to do so.

So while i reject the doctrine of OS as a human machination, conceived with an agenda, i agree that we inherit Adam's sin, making Christ necessary, yes. i dislike that this has been made into religion, chasing people away from what is really personal/human government, but that is what it is, i guess.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Beloved, you have neglected the argument of "original sin" AFTER the cross!
You seem to lump the sinners since Adam with those made righteous in Christ.
You say that "we", which includes all men born after Adam, were made righteous
by the Lord 's sacrifice. I disagree. Only those IN Christ are righteous. Granted
that EVERYONE, even Judas Iscariot, were offered remission of sins: not everyone,
however, has received the Gift.

That's a given. Bible 101.

I never said anything about everyone born since Adam after the cross are made righteous. In fact I distinctly said only those baptized into Christ are the ones blessed that way. Check back in previous messages. Don't assume so much.

[mfblume]

See, brother?

Originally Posted by mfblume

No I am not saying that. Thanks for asking. Let me clarify.

I am saying that Adam's sin stained all mankind positionally, and without committing one single sin, we're still lost in Adam. But when we get baptized into Christ's death, we leave Adam and enter Christ and are made righteous positionally. Is not our position one of righteousness, but our behaviour might not match unless we learn and grow in grace?



I disagree. Paul said one man's disobedience made us all sinners. It did not say it made us susceptible to the inescapable downward plunge of sin so as to render ourselves sinners by our actions. If that is the case, then the opposite would be that Christ did not make us righteous, but put an effect upon us that would cause us to be able to make ourselves righteous.

You see, that's the kicker! Christ M<ADE us righteous without us doing one thing to earn it. But you are saying we have to earn sinfulness.

Again, we have to look at it in reverse. Did Jesus make us righteous without our input, or didn't he? Was I made righteous as soon as I was saved because God gave me HIS righteousness before I had a chance to do one good deed, or not? I claim yes. THAT DEMANDS Adam made us sinners.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

See, brother?

Beloved, I should have written "you SEEMED", and not "seem".

Nevertheless, I lost you on the "positionally". Also, I am not convinced that the
cross did not address original sin.
What happens to the children who die? If they inherited Adam's sin, then they
are condemned...only to die? Will they be justified at the Great Judgment?

Adam sinned and incurred death: and death was passed on to us...NOT
ADAM'S SIN! What it is telling us is that the Law of Sin and Death was
passed on, which is: "...the soul that sins shall die." It is only through
that Law that we are declared to be sinners; because God, in His omniscience,
KNEW that we also would sin.

As for our "position" in Christ: either we are truly saved, or not...unless I am still
misunderstanding that doctrine. Please explain.

[shazeep]

i must admit that i am more comfortable with that. We are freed from the Law of sin and death.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Beloved, I should have written "you SEEMED", and not "seem".

Thanks for clarification.

Nevertheless, I lost you on the "positionally". Also, I am not convinced that the
cross did not address original sin.

Romans 5 says that death came on all men, and death is the penalty for sin. And it says that Adam's sin caused that death to come on us. So we had a penalty for sin on our lives when we did not commit the sin that deserved it. Adam did. So his ACT OF SIN put the penalty on us.

That made us sinners. "Sinners" is a positional term. We were sinners without having committed a single sin. Adam did the sin that made us sinners.

By the same token, Christ made us righteous when we were baptized into His death. Christ's death did a double whammy on the work of the devil. It not only paid the price for our sinfulness, but it also removed us from the race of Adam and put us into the new creation race of Christ. Thirdly, it also made us righteous. So, as Adam did the sin that made us sinners, Christ did the obedience that made us righteous.

The only way to really get the correct understanding is to take the opposite work of Adam that was done by Christ and see how his act made us righteous, demanding that we realize Adam's act made us sinners. Sinners are the opposite of the righteous ones.

I think we need to get that aspect first and then go forward to the implications.

What happens to the children who die? If they inherited Adam's sin, then they
are condemned...only to die? Will they be justified at the Great Judgment?

Children are born sinners. Until an age of understanding, Christ's cross covered them for righteousness' sake. They cannot agree to be baptized into His death, and Jesus said he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. So, the blood covers that.

Adam sinned and incurred death: and death was passed on to us...NOT
ADAM'S SIN!

But my point is that death is penalty for sin, and in this case, penalty for ADAM'S SIN. People suffered death due to ADAM'S SIN. Just as WE DIED with Christ so as to render His death to be ours, and were made righteous IN HIM, we SINNED WITH ADAM because we were in his loins when he sinned. As God sees it, we sinned Adam's sin by PROXY, just as we obeyed God through Christ in His obedience and are made righteous.

What it is telling us is that the Law of Sin and Death was
passed on, which is: "...the soul that sins shall die."

I do not personally believe the law of sin is "the soul that sins shall die." I believe the law of sin and death is "do good on your pwn without God's intervention by our faith, and the sin in our flesh will rise up and slay us instead."

This is the law of sin and death: Rom 7:21 KJV I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

It is only through
that Law that we are declared to be sinners; because God, in His omniscience,
KNEW that we also would sin.

I do n;t think God's omniscience had any impact whatsoever on what we would be called or what law of sin or whatever would be in effect.. THE ONLY thing the omniscience of God was involved with in action as a result was God's plan for salvation after we would sin. That's all. He did not enact creation based upon his omniscience, or anything else, except have a plan for salvation to remedy it. My opinion.

As for our "position" in Christ: either we are truly saved, or not...unless I am still
misunderstanding that doctrine. Please explain.

Right, we are either saved or not. But the position aspect is that we are positionally righteous by Christ as we were positionally sinners by Adam. We DID NOTHING to be righteous, but Christ did. WE DID NOTHING to be sinners, but Adam did.

A good saying.... Jesus did everything that made us pleasing to God. By the same token, Adam did everything to us that made God separate from us.

We were sinners before we were born, because we were in the loins of Adam when he sinned as if we personally sinned..

This law of seeing us in the loins of our forebears is demonstrated here....

Heb 7:9-10 KJV And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. (10) For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

How could Levi pay tithes to Melchisedek? When Abraham did it, Levi was in his loins, and it was like Levi doing it! THAT LAW or PRINCIPLE is the same with sin. We were in ADAM when he sinned, making us sinners as though we ate the forbidden fruit, and were "legally" condemned for that action.

Hope that helps clarify things from my perspective. Each of us are always learning...

[mfblume]

These titles should likely be dropped. "Original sin" Let's just stick to the terms Paul used. I think that is better. Paul said we were made SINNERS by Adam's act. That's fact.