Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

How can we tell them that they need Jesus if we can't say they're lost?

A fair question would be why are you telling anyone they need Jesus, if it is even possible that you are a hypocrite? Are you coming from the position of Master, or Servant when you "tell" someone they need Jesus? I'm curious, have you ever, yet, encountered someone in all this "telling" that has never heard of Jesus?

And consider--if no one comes to Christ but by God's drawing them, what might be the very best way to chase people away from Christ, than by someone who might be considered a Master--and who will likely be cultivating that image, proving the point--"telling" them what they "must do" to get right with their own Father? I know your living depends upon this--and don't worry, btw, the fearful abound--but think about it.

Our accepted model of "leading people to Christ" is deeply flawed, and the flaw is obvious at our conception of "leading" imo. "Leading" appeals to the ego, everyone wants to be a "leader," etc. I suggest that the best leaders are at the very least reluctant ones, and as a general rule i would be suspicious of anyone who aspires to be a leader by that definition.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

A fair question would be why are you telling anyone they need Jesus, if it is even possible that you are a hypocrite?

This is where you show your lack of understanding in the word and have effectively been rendered to do nothing for God's will.

Worst case scenario, since you seem to always think the worst of a situation despite 1 Cor 13:7, and I am a hypocrite, notice what Paul said:

Php 1:14-18 KJV And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear. (15) Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: (16) The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: (17) But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. (18) What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

Are you coming from the position of Master, or Servant when you "tell" someone they need Jesus?

Far from a master. Just a messenger servant, since Jesus told us to tell people and preach about Him. And I am seeking to be obedient to that.

1Co 9:16 KJV For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

I'm curious, have you ever, yet, encountered someone in all this "telling" that has never heard of Jesus?

That's kind of hard to do in Canada as far as people not knowing He ever existed. But as far as knowing He is Saviour and they do not know what that means, perhaps only having heard it, yes!.

And consider--if no one comes to Christ but by God's drawing them, what might be the very best way to chase people away from Christ, than by someone who might be considered a Master--and who will likely be cultivating that image, proving the point--"telling" them what they "must do" to get right with their own Father?

Get right with their own Father? That statement's a stacked deck.

Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again! In other words we must be born so that God is genuinely our Father. We're all children of God in the sense GOD CREATED us. But in the sense of lost or saved, we must be BORN AGAIN and thereby truly have that relationship as Sons of God.

Otherwise, John would never have written:

Joh 1:12 KJV But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

According to your way of thinking, no one needs to become a son of God, since we are all children of God. That means John should not only have avoided quoting Jesus about the need to be BORN AGAIN, but he should never have stated that God gives us power to BECOME SONS OF GOD since we already are without Jesus!

This is where lack of understanding derives from lack of biblical knowledge and lack of knowing what it teaches and says. You made huge leaps of assumption that violate what the bible actually teaches. When confronted with these teachings, you say God put that there to make the dishonest stumble. Well, how else would God say it if we were right? lol

I know your living depends upon this--and don't worry, btw, the fearful abound--but think about it.

Wrong. My living does not depend on this. I work a radio news broadcasting job, you know. But I told you many things before that you shuffled beneath the carpet, since they proved your premise incorrect.

Our accepted model of "leading people to Christ" is deeply flawed,

...Says the man who thinks no one needs to BECOME the sons of God, and who is unaware that Jesus told us to go and tell people to believe on Him and understand the work of the cross, lest they perish. Sorry, I must obey the Lord and not man.

and the flaw is obvious at our conception of "leading" imo. "Leading" appeals to the ego, everyone wants to be a "leader," etc. I suggest that the best leaders are at the very least reluctant ones, and as a general rule i would be suspicious of anyone who aspires to be a leader by that definition.

Jesus leads, not us. We FOLLOW His Spirit. His Spirit leads us to tell the lost about salvation, and we follow him by obeying. And like Paul, we tell anyone who thinks to follow us, to only do so as long as we follow Christ.

The bible is a great book saying many things you are unaware of. You should take time to read it more!

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

This is where you show your lack of understanding in the word




The bible is a great book saying many things you are unaware of. You should take time to read it more!

said in all humility, surely

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

said in all humility, surely

...as in we have nothing to boast about since the work of the cross owes all gratitude to God, leaving us nothing without him? Sure thing!

But actually said in the desire to see everyone saved, including you!

[shazeep]

Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again!

hey, i'm telling you you must be born again; how's that workin out for ya? Jesus didn't tell the thief on the cross that he had to be born again, but said "today you will be with Me in paradise."

Jesus leads, not us. We FOLLOW His Spirit. His Spirit leads us to tell the lost about salvation, and we follow him by obeying. And like Paul, we tell anyone who thinks to follow us, to only do so as long as we follow Christ.

ok, well if your "following Christ" leads you to "all Catholics are lost," and you reject what i am saying, fine; you might defend your position to your brethren here, who do not believe that anyone here even made such statements, while we both know that you and others have, and in fact this is a widely held position. Where is the disconnect?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Jesus told Nicodemus he must be born again!

hey, i'm telling you you must be born again; how's that workin out for ya?

I was born again!

Jesus didn't tell the thief on the cross that he had to be born again, but said "today you will be with Me in paradise."

And that was days before he even resurrected, and beyond that, another 40 days before He told the disciples to BEGIN preaching a message they never preached before in Jerusalem.... namely, repentance, remission of sins in His name, and reception of the promise of the Father, which is fulfilled in Acts 2:38.

Surely you knew that!

Jesus leads, not us. We FOLLOW His Spirit. His Spirit leads us to tell the lost about salvation, and we follow him by obeying. And like Paul, we tell anyone who thinks to follow us, to only do so as long as we follow Christ.

ok, well if your "following Christ" leads you to "all Catholics are lost,"

This is where you totally misread my intentions and it put you on a hate binge for me ever since. Again, the bible says we must trust on the work of the cross or be lost, and catholics don't. But I already said that and you twisted it as though I go around emphasizing "all ___ are lost. "

and you reject what i am saying, fine;

You simply twist what I say, intend and mean. And you simply conflict with the bible and excuse it away saying God put that in there to deceive dishonest people.

you might defend your position to your brethren here, who do not believe that anyone here even made such statements, while we both know that you and others have, and in fact this is a widely held position. Where is the disconnect?

The disconnect is in what I meant by it and what I explained here about that. You've disregarded so many explanations I made, that it's moot now.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The disconnect is in what I meant by it and what I explained here about that. You've disregarded so many explanations I made, that it's moot now.

your justifications were understood from the beginning, Mike; we are all familiar with the rhetoric. It has a basis in Scripture and can even be "proven" to be truth, if other Scripture is disregarded. The disconnect is somewhere else, obviously, if you hold to your explanations while someone else who is OP expresses disbelief that you even said them, and this is not moot, as they have possibly not heard your explanations, i don't know, but they (more than one) are expressing skepticism that they were even uttered, and we must assume there are others, and that this is also a common belief, albeit by apparently two different "Oneness" camps.

So, not being Oneness, i have no dog in the hunt, but if you really care for truth you might explore this.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

your justifications were understood from the beginning, Mike; we are all familiar with the rhetoric.

Don't put yourself in a "we" since everyone has witnessed your uniqueness here in denying scripture.

It has a basis in Scripture and can even be "proven" to be truth, if other Scripture is disregarded.

I have yet to see you present any scripture to deny it. You take it all out of context.

The disconnect is somewhere else, obviously, if you hold to your explanations while someone else who is OP expresses disbelief that you even said them, and this is not moot, as they have possibly not heard your explanations, i don't know, but they (more than one) are expressing skepticism that they were even uttered, and we must assume there are others, and that this is also a common belief, albeit by apparently two different "Oneness" camps.

So, not being Oneness, i have no dog in the hunt, but if you really care for truth you might explore this.

You've proven yourself out of context with not on the word of God but even my intentions, disregarding every statement I made as to what I intended. SO, just going to need a better reference to consider that.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You've proven yourself out of context with not on the word of God but even my intentions, disregarding every statement I made as to what I intended. SO, just going to need a better reference to consider that.

i think you have been given ample space to explain the intentions of "Everyone else who is not OP is lost" and i cannot stop anyone accepting your explanations or rejecting them, so i trust the intelligence of unbiased readers here to discern what is truth, which will out even if neither of us has it right.

As they are also OP, i cannot discern a better reference for a house divided, if any of them also object to "All NonOPs are lost," or phrase it how you like so as not to be taken out of context, misconstrued, or otherwise misunderstood. Or avoid this question as well, Mike, i don't really care, and the answer is obvious anyway. No one gets to reason their way out of You reap what you sow, surely we might agree on that.

[shazeep]

And the focus of the bible is saying the saved are those who trust in the work of the cross for their righteousness, both initially and ongoing.

now this is a diff story, and i agree with you here, while suggesting that the work of the cross is a spiritual matter, from God, and men may not have the best definition of it. a dispassionate look at yours would surely suggest that you have a fairly legalistic view, accept such and such concept and perform such and such works at an altar, intoning such and such words in a public profession of faith, and you have to mean it or it doesn't count. This is fine, for you; after all, we must all seek our own salvation. But this doesn't mean you get to define salvation for everyone else; or if it does, explain to me how and we'll go from there.