TRANSCRIPT Of Message By HANEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hoovie]

ST Mark you still owe me a PM....

[StMark]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

ST Mark you still owe me a PM....

NO you owe me one steve

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by StMark

NO you owe me one steve

Good morning Mark!

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

Statistics must be about the most malleable thing known to man, especially when used by partisan Pentecostals.

The AoG reported 450,340 "conversions" in 2006. That is a relatively meaningless number that undoubtedly includes everybody that said a prayer, attended a drama, or drove by a church on a hot Sunday when the church windows were propped open. (They are first cousins to Oneness Pentecostals)

Water baptisms more honestly reflect the number of "new believers." In 2006 the AoG reported 114,972 water baptisms.

In the same year (2006) the AoG reported 91,893 Spirit Baptisms.

That's more like 80% of new believers receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

I wonder what the "conversions"/Spirit Baptisms ratio is for Oneness Churches?

My goodness. What a horrific twisting of numbers.

You're right about statistics being "malleable". You just proved it by your ridicoulous distorting of the numbers to supposedly show that 80% of AG converts get filled with the Holy Ghost. It's funny how you talked about numbers being malleable in the hands of "partisan Pentecostals" , then went on to sound quite partisan yourself.

So according to your figuring, no-one should be considered "converted" in AG churches unless they're baptized... And of those, you say 80% of those were filled with the Holy Ghost, so therefore they have an 80% rate of Holy Ghost infilling? Are you serious?

The key to this here is that YOU have decided what a "convert" is in an AG church. How about letting them speak for themselves, instead of you trying to "work the numbers" (their numbers) to prove a point? Dont distort their numbers for them. If anyone is going to distort the numbers, how about letting them do it themselves? I'd rather let them speak for themselves, and I'll go with their definition of what a new convert is, not your obviously self-serving definition. Lets me be real here: It's a documented fact that the AoG counts as converts those who make "decisions for Christ", ( those who accept 'Jesus as their savior', etc)... it's NOT simply "everybody that said a prayer, attended a drama, or drove by a church on a hot Sunday when the church windows were propped open" , as you put it .

That strikes me as either wishful thinking on your part, or just straight-up intellectual dishonesty. You eliminate about 335,000 of the AG "converts" from your numbers, to make it seem like they're not really converts at all? You cut down the original number (THE AG's OWN NUMBER) of converts by about 74%... and then you work downward from there? Who are you kidding?

And then you finish off your post by questioning how Onenes churches compare in this regard to the AG? .....as if to imply that the AG's numbers are comparable or better than Oneness churches in general? Please.

Take off the rose colored glasses buddy. If 80% of the AG 'converts' were getting filled with the Holy Ghost, they denomination wouldnt have expressed alarm at the low percentage of Holy Ghost infilling. If it was as you're implying, their own Assistant General Secretary Michael Crabtree would not have said "If we continue this trend, in 10 years we will have a very small percentage of Pentecostals in the Assemblies of God." http://rss.ag.org/articles/detail.cf..._Source=search

The Assemblies of God's own own report is HERE, if you want to take a look . You'll notice they use phrases like "an alarming trend", "another alarming statistic", "broad serious issues", etc. Their own report and their own assesment of the situation doesn't paint the rosy picture you're trying to create.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

I'm going by what I've seen with my own eyes.

My Apostolic friends have had as many divorces as my non-Apostolic friends. This is a fact in my situation!

I don't see Apostolic churches growing at larger rates than non-Apostolic churches. In fact, most of the "mega" churches in our area are non-Pentecostal!

The retention rate of Apostolic kids that I grew up with has been horrific! I can't imagine any other church organization being worse!

So you make broad brush sweeping comments about the Pentecostal movement (as compared to non-Spirit filled churches) based on the divorces you've seen, the rate of Apostolic kids you grew up with, etc?

No numbers, no stats or anything...

Come on now, Steinway.
seriously...

[scotty]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

There is no "tabernacle" in the NT other than the believers. Where ever we gather is "church"

Really ? Where were they when they healed the lame man ? Where were they going ? Why ?

[scotty]

Originally Posted by MikeinAR

This is a great thread with a lot of good points. Just IMO, I think the lack of HGB's and new converts in the AOG and other charismatic organizations can be attributed to several things, but there are two that concern me the most.

1.) There is a complete neglect and lack of fasting and daily, personal prayer by church members/saints. A new testament, Holy Ghost empowered church can NOT survive and thrive with members who won't spend time daily in prayer and fasting. There is power in separation. You can't show up on Sunday and expect to be an effective witness to the Lost, by means of an anointed presentation of the Gospel message after spending all week on everything except focusing on Christ through prayer and fasting.

2.) The lack of true discipleship in most AOG/charismatic churches is alarming. A new convert is simply a seed planted and if that seed isn't nourished through weekly discipleship in small groups then Luke 8:4-8 explains what can happen. The doctrine of HGB should be taught with a purpose in mind. The purpose of Pentecost wasn't so 50-100 saints could all get in a room and talk in tongues together in the local church on Sunday night. The purpose of Pentecost is to communicate the gospel of Christ to an unknowing, dying world and empowerment to live as fully devoted followers of Christ. Many churches explain the how of the Holy Ghost but don't delve into the why. The why is just as important, if not more so than the how.

Discipleship isn't: a)calling new converts to check on them, b)making sure they sign the registration books on Sunday, c)shaking there hand to make them feel welcome, d)showing interest in their personal life when you see them at services, etc...

True discipleship can't be relegated to solely old model Sunday school. It takes, strong personal relationships, very small groups in comfortable, engaging settings, accountability partners and flexibility that isn't always present in the SS environment. If a church relegates the main thrust of it's discipleship to new converts to SS, it won't work.

I could go on and on, but I'll stop there. I don't have half the answers to all of the problems and I know that. But, if the AOG and charismatic movement really want an authentic move of the Holy Ghost again, those two points have to be seriously addressed.

Good Stuff !!

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

So you make broad brush sweeping comments about the Pentecostal movement (as compared to non-Spirit filled churches) based on the divorces you've seen, the rate of Apostolic kids you grew up with, etc?

No numbers, no stats or anything...

Come on now, Steinway.
seriously...

Good luck finding numbers and stats - - not sure they are out there.

[Stephanas]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

My goodness. What a horrific twisting of numbers.

You're right about statistics being "malleable". You just proved it by your ridicoulous distorting of the numbers to supposedly show that 80% of AG converts get filled with the Holy Ghost. It's funny how you talked about numbers being malleable in the hands of "partisan Pentecostals" , then went on to sound quite partisan yourself.

So according to your figuring, no-one should be considered "converted" in AG churches unless they're baptized... And of those, you say 80% of those were filled with the Holy Ghost, so therefore they have an 80% rate of Holy Ghost infilling? Are you serious?

The key to this here is that YOU have decided what a "convert" is in an AG church. How about letting them speak for themselves, instead of you trying to "work the numbers" (their numbers) to prove a point? Dont distort their numbers for them. If anyone is going to distort the numbers, how about letting them do it themselves? I'd rather let them speak for themselves, and I'll go with their definition of what a new convert is, not your obviously self-serving definition. Lets me be real here: It's a documented fact that the AoG counts as converts those who make "decisions for Christ", ( those who accept 'Jesus as their savior', etc)... it's NOT simply "everybody that said a prayer, attended a drama, or drove by a church on a hot Sunday when the church windows were propped open" , as you put it .

That strikes me as either wishful thinking on your part, or just straight-up intellectual dishonesty. You eliminate about 335,000 of the AG "converts" from your numbers, to make it seem like they're not really converts at all? You cut down the original number (THE AG's OWN NUMBER) of converts by about 74%... and then you work downward from there? Who are you kidding?

And then you finish off your post by questioning how Onenes churches compare in this regard to the AG? .....as if to imply that the AG's numbers are comparable or better than Oneness churches in general? Please.

Take off the rose colored glasses buddy. If 80% of the AG 'converts' were getting filled with the Holy Ghost, they denomination wouldnt have expressed alarm at the low percentage of Holy Ghost infilling. If it was as you're implying, their own Assistant General Secretary Michael Crabtree would not have said "If we continue this trend, in 10 years we will have a very small percentage of Pentecostals in the Assemblies of God." http://rss.ag.org/articles/detail.cf..._Source=search

The Assemblies of God's own own report is HERE, if you want to take a look . You'll notice they use phrases like "an alarming trend", "another alarming statistic", "broad serious issues", etc. Their own report and their own assesment of the situation doesn't paint the rosy picture you're trying to create.

“Buddy”

I apologize for being unable to rise to the emotional investment in my posting that I have inspired in you. Thank you for the interesting articles.

I stand by my assertion that “conversions,” despite whatever emphasis the AoG statisticians may place on them is a relatively meaningless number. The proof is in your referenced article and in Charles Crabtree’s angst over the AoG only retaining 4% of these “converts.”

I did not say that the AoG saw 80% of “converts” baptized in the Spirit. I said that, according to the AoG statistics, 80% of the total numbers of those baptized in water were baptized in the Spirit.

Is the point of your posting to argue that only 20% of the membership of the AoG has received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost? If so, what information are you using to support that argument?

And then you finish off your post by questioning how Onenes churches compare in this regard to the AG? .....as if to imply that the AG's numbers are comparable or better than Oneness churches in general? Please.

Any implication in my question, “I wonder what the "conversions"/Spirit Baptisms ratio is for Oneness Churches?” belongs to your interpretation and not to my question. As far as I know, we’re on the same team “buddy.”

The point of my question was to underscore the fact that Oneness churches don’t track “conversions,” and, as a result, we have no idea what percentage of people who pray an initial prayer at a Oneness church go on to receive the Spirit baptism.

I’ve never even seen any data from a Oneness organization that would tell us what percentage of people who are baptized in Oneness churches receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Do you have statistics, comparable to the published AoG statistics, for any Oneness organization? Until we have those numbers, we are only comparing statistics to opinions.

In my opinion the Oneness movement has a greater rate of water baptized people receiving the Spirit baptism, but I don't know what number of Oneness "conversions" continue to Spirit baptism and/or church membership.

[TRFrance]

Stephanas,
so as not to emotionally invest too much in this post, I'll keep it very simple.

Maybe we're talking past each other a little here. Pardon me if I missed your meaning; perhaps you've missed mine also. But this is the the primary point at the heart of my previous post:

If you were only look at baptized people as being "converts" in both the AG and Oneness (which is how you seem to wish to do it), then yes, we'd then have a valid apples-to-apples comparison. But the reality is far different. You consider the 450,000 "converts" to be a meaningless number. But it is far from meaningless if these are people who've been told they're "saved" because they made a "decision for Christ". Needless to say, those are not just numbers, those are souls -- the majority of which are not properly taught as to what bible salvation truly is.

In the AG they consider anyone who's made a "decision for Christ" to be saved. What this leads to is a lot of people who've sitting in their church pews for years, who've not gone on to be baptized or filled... yet apparently they still think they're ok.

This is what the AG is recognizing -- that over the years they have de-emphasized the Holy Ghost to point that now a sizeable number of their members (perhaps even a majority) don't have the Holy Ghost. I believe that is the natural conclusion to draw not just from their own stats, but from Crabtree's own assessment that "in 10 years we will have a very small percentage of Pentecostals in the Assemblies of God". Meanwhile, I dont think anyone would seriously make a similar statement about the UPC or any Oneness organization I know of.

Are there reliable Oneness statistics to compare to the AG's stats? Not that I'm aware of . But I think a combination of common sense and the available anecdotal evidence paints a pretty clear picture .

Bottom line is, as far as being truly "Pentecostal", the AG is a denomination in decline. Its kinda sad, but not unexpected considering the path they've been on for decades now. What the AG has perpetrated over all these decades now has been a spiritual travesty.