Confidentiality of Tithes

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Jay

Sir, Jesus called people serpents, seplechures, graves, filthy dishes, unwashed, theives, robbers, idolators, and worse, and those were the people that He had the most in common with (Jesus was in no fashion a Sadducee). He called them rebellious, userpers, liars, decievers, and destined for Hell's fire. According to your accusations against AB, you would condemn Jesus Himself, as well as Paul, Peter, Jude, James, John the Baptist, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Malachai, etc. for saying such things about the "believers' of their day.

For all of the seeming frustration that is revealed in his posts (as the son of a bivocational Pastor I understand better than most), I find that his invective to actually fall short of Biblical proportions. I might not agree with him that all that way, but I have found that his statements hold more truth than many would desire to believe.

I have listened to a number of preachers over the radio (denominational or, just for the amusement of AB, denominal) who have stated that they have found that the people in their churches who tithe are also the most faithful in giving and service. They are also the most blessed in the congregation. They then say that they do not believe that it is required, but that it is a very good practice, and one that they themselves practice.

I believe the {people} you are referring to was the corrupt leadership of the law?

[shag]

Originally Posted by Jay

Sir, Jesus called people serpents, seplechures, graves, filthy dishes, unwashed, theives, robbers, idolators, and worse, and those were the people that He had the most in common with (Jesus was in no fashion a Sadducee). He called them rebellious, userpers, liars, decievers, and destined for Hell's fire. According to your accusations against AB, you would condemn Jesus Himself, as well as Paul, Peter, Jude, James, John the Baptist, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Malachai, etc. for saying such things about the "believers' of their day.

For all of the seeming frustration that is revealed in his posts (as the son of a bivocational Pastor I understand better than most), I find that his invective to actually fall short of Biblical proportions. I might not agree with him that all that way, but I have found that his statements hold more truth than many would desire to believe.

I have listened to a number of preachers over the radio (denominational or, just for the amusement of AB, denominal) who have stated that they have found that the people in their churches who tithe are also the most faithful in giving and service. They are also the most blessed in the congregation. They then say that they do not believe that it is required, but that it is a very good practice, and one that they themselves practice.

My bottom sig line is a reminder for me, as to help regulate what should or should not come out of my mouth. I think we would all do well to at the least attempt to heed to the same scripture, no matter what Jesus said to and called the false shepherds and leaders (and also the thief of Jn 10 per Ez.34).

Our conversation should not be trash talk name calling, and elders in any kind of leadership postion, ALL THE MORE, plus for example sake to the more Spiritually imature (readers).

We are all on the same team, right?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Jay

Sir, Jesus called people serpents, seplechures, graves, filthy dishes, unwashed, theives, robbers, idolators, and worse, and those were the people that He had the most in common with (Jesus was in no fashion a Sadducee). He called them rebellious, userpers, liars, decievers, and destined for Hell's fire. According to your accusations against AB, you would condemn Jesus Himself, as well as Paul, Peter, Jude, James, John the Baptist, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Malachai, etc. for saying such things about the "believers' of their day.

For all of the seeming frustration that is revealed in his posts (as the son of a bivocational Pastor I understand better than most), I find that his invective to actually fall short of Biblical proportions. I might not agree with him that all that way, but I have found that his statements hold more truth than many would desire to believe.

I have listened to a number of preachers over the radio (denominational or, just for the amusement of AB, denominal) who have stated that they have found that the people in their churches who tithe are also the most faithful in giving and service. They are also the most blessed in the congregation. They then say that they do not believe that it is required, but that it is a very good practice, and one that they themselves practice.

Jay thanks for the time you took to respond. Unfortunately you took a big swing and a miss. Before I post my response let me say I am absolutely amazed that you would associate AB's posts in a favorable light with Jesus Christ himself. I am concerned for your perception of Christ.

First neither Jesus nor the prophets spoke so harshly to "believers". Jesus condemned the corrupt spiritual leadership of his day, those who essentially shut out he common man from a relationship with God by teaching them they must keep the myriad of rituals and regulations to be pleasing to God (including exceeding the tithing laws to the point of tithing leaves out of their herb garden). That was the Pharisees, the Saducees didn't believe in angels, spirits, a resurrection, or eternal life. They also rejected all scripture except the Pentetuch, and the booths of the temple which were used as a means of religious extortion of sincere worshippers, were mostly (if not completely) owned by the Saduceeic High Priests. Jesus hated what they made religion, both their legalism and materialism. He wasn't lashing out at "believers". That is simply a misinformed statement. Furthermore the prophets spoke out against both religious and political leaders who were godless and corrupt. They also spoke out against the false prophets who told the people that no judgment would come. The only common people who were condemned were those who willingly believed the lies of the false prophets, continued in unrepentance and idolatry, and thought they were secure because they gave God token recognition. These were not "believers" these would be equivalent to the majority of American christians who rarely attend church, live with no regard for God or his Word, but claim to be saved.

Second you think that AB has been mild? And that there is more truth than many want to admit? Can you list 3 truths that AB has stated in all of his posts combined on this thread? Can you even name one truth that AB has stated? Can you list one single scripture which he has used to support tithing that is in context?

Third, you have listened to a number of preachers on the radio who say they do not believe tithing is required. Why not? Do these men have the authority to make optional what God has requied? Of course not. The reason they don't believe it is required is because they know there is no scriptural requirement for christians to tithe. Whether or not they think it is a good practice is irrelevant, we can not base doctrinal teachings on subjective opinions. Much less tell people they are going to hell over something that is simply a "good practice."

[Digging4Truth]

Yeah... this thread is over. It has gone to some very unproductive places.

[returnman]

I started the thread and agree it has run it's course. Unfortunately it seems to have left a bad taste with some. I pray that be lifted. The original purpose was to get feedback on whether or not the tithing report should be included in an annual business meeting. Seems most agree that it should. Thanks.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by returnman

I started the thread and agree it has run it's course. Unfortunately it seems to have left a bad taste with some. I pray that be lifted. The original purpose was to get feedback on whether or not the tithing report should be included in an annual business meeting. Seems most agree that it should. Thanks.

You are not responsible for where the thread went. I learned a lot from it.On a general knowledge level; I learned that not every pentecostal church or even UPCI church hides where the money goes from membership.

On a very personal level; I learned that I still harbored bitterness toward my old pastor much of which had to do with the fact that I felt he was not honest and fleeced the flock for his own personal gain and glory. And that to some extent that bitterness had not only spilled over to the pastor whose church I attend now but also on to the ministry in general. I was able to repent of it..

I also learned that some people in ministry really ARE the way I see my old pastor and are not deserving of their offices or of my personal respect.

I'm not sure what anyone else took away from this but I believe that if it was good for even one then it was good and so I just thought I'd say it was good for me.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Jay thanks for the time you took to respond. Unfortunately you took a big swing and a miss. Before I post my response let me say I am absolutely amazed that you would associate AB's posts in a favorable light with Jesus Christ himself. I am concerned for your perception of Christ.

First neither Jesus nor the prophets spoke so harshly to "believers". Jesus condemned the corrupt spiritual leadership of his day, those who essentially shut out he common man from a relationship with God by teaching them they must keep the myriad of rituals and regulations to be pleasing to God (including exceeding the tithing laws to the point of tithing leaves out of their herb garden). That was the Pharisees, the Saducees didn't believe in angels, spirits, a resurrection, or eternal life. They also rejected all scripture except the Pentetuch, and the booths of the temple which were used as a means of religious extortion of sincere worshippers, were mostly (if not completely) owned by the Saduceeic High Priests. Jesus hated what they made religion, both their legalism and materialism. He wasn't lashing out at "believers". That is simply a misinformed statement. Furthermore the prophets spoke out against both religious and political leaders who were godless and corrupt. They also spoke out against the false prophets who told the people that no judgment would come. The only common people who were condemned were those who willingly believed the lies of the false prophets, continued in unrepentance and idolatry, and thought they were secure because they gave God token recognition. These were not "believers" these would be equivalent to the majority of American christians who rarely attend church, live with no regard for God or his Word, but claim to be saved.

Second you think that AB has been mild? And that there is more truth than many want to admit? Can you list 3 truths that AB has stated in all of his posts combined on this thread? Can you even name one truth that AB has stated? Can you list one single scripture which he has used to support tithing that is in context?

Third, you have listened to a number of preachers on the radio who say they do not believe tithing is required. Why not? Do these men have the authority to make optional what God has requied? Of course not. The reason they don't believe it is required is because they know there is no scriptural requirement for christians to tithe. Whether or not they think it is a good practice is irrelevant, we can not base doctrinal teachings on subjective opinions. Much less tell people they are going to hell over something that is simply a "good practice."

I put the word believers in quotes in my post because I knew who was being addressed. They appeared to be believers, but were not.

Further, I said that AB was mild compared to the recorded denouncements in Scripture by the various prophets, Apostles, and our Lord Himself.

Second, Jesus never condemened the tithe as something set with an expiration date. In fact, He said that their attention to the detail with the mint was a good thing. What He rebuked them for was not having mercy, and making the Law far more heavy with their rules about hand washing and other details.

Jesus never bothered to rebuke the Sadducees but once, because they were were so far removed from anything resembling the truth that there was no point. The Pharisees were closer to the right, and so He endevored to refine them, even if it was harsh.

As for AB's posts, I have to say that I have met far too many people that matched his discriptions of people who did not pay tithes to disagree with him on the principle. Not knowing anything about the giving of the members of this forum, I am not going to judge whether or not he was correct about anyone. That would be between him and God, and them and God.

I also thank you for replying to my post, and I hope that I did not come across at any point as impertenant (probably mispelled that just now as there is no way to conveniently spell check on my current computer). If I have been at any point disrespectful, please pardon me.

[AreYouReady?]

When my husband and I were young, we tithed and gave offerings without fail. It wasn't until we saw how the tithe was mismanaged by the pastor, and no, the tithe was not included in the business meetings, that we started to study the difference between the tithe and NT giving. While we had no qualms about the pastor living above us financially, it was hard to tell my children we could not afford something they wanted and see the pastor's children have what my children wanted ... and more. Nevertheless, my children were better off not having everything they wanted.

Now that my husband is middle-aged, he still gets up at 4:30 am, and sometimes 2:45 am to be at work by 4:00 am to work a heavy physical-labor job that he's been blessed to have held for 30 years now. He comes home very tired, working 10 hours a day. His paycheck is mostly the same as it was 10 years ago because every year he gets a 25 cent/hour raise, the insurance premiums gobble it up. Some years the people received NO raise and the insurance premiums gobbled it up. I am thankful that we have medical insurance so I am not complaining about it, just mentioning it.

Likewise, when inflation struck and gas prices climbed faster than anybody ever predicted, his pay did not go up either. We had to cut back on other things to accommodate rising prices.

Now knowing how hard my husband works at his job, comes home with his hands and hips hurting from the physical labor, it pains me to read someone call non tithe payers a tightwad, stingy, tightfisted etc because they covet 10% off of his hard-earned labor. My husband would give the shirt off his back to someone truly in need. I've seen him press money into the palm of people who lost their homes by fire, buy groceries for the hungry, give money to divorced mothers for their children etc. I also remember the years we did tithe and did without our wants while the pastor and his family lived well and had their wants.

I don't know how we, as Christian people should resolve the differences of belief on this matter, but I do know that God knows the intent of each person's heart. We maintain from our studies that NT giving is not a tithe and that it does not always automatically go to the pastor. Paul took up money, said he robbed other churches to do others service and he did not keep it. Paul worked with his own hands to supply his own needs. He gave the offering to the poor saints of Jerusalem.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Jay

I put the word believers in quotes in my post because I knew who was being addressed. They appeared to be believers, but were not.

Further, I said that AB was mild compared to the recorded denouncements in Scripture by the various prophets, Apostles, and our Lord Himself.

Second, Jesus never condemened the tithe as something set with an expiration date. In fact, He said that their attention to the detail with the mint was a good thing. What He rebuked them for was not having mercy, and making the Law far more heavy with their rules about hand washing and other details.

Jesus never bothered to rebuke the Sadducees but once, because they were were so far removed from anything resembling the truth that there was no point. The Pharisees were closer to the right, and so He endevored to refine them, even if it was harsh.

As for AB's posts, I have to say that I have met far too many people that matched his discriptions of people who did not pay tithes to disagree with him on the principle. Not knowing anything about the giving of the members of this forum, I am not going to judge whether or not he was correct about anyone. That would be between him and God, and them and God.

I also thank you for replying to my post, and I hope that I did not come across at any point as impertenant (probably mispelled that just now as there is no way to conveniently spell check on my current computer). If I have been at any point disrespectful, please pardon me.

The tithe you are speaking of was food items as you know. If no expiration date then by your logic I can tithe food items. That is if I'm in the food production business.

Our Lord was telling the Pharisees no big deal about their remarks on tithing food items. They tithed food as commanded.

There is NO record of a transition from tithing food items under the law to filthy lucre for the new testament church.

Also not everyone tithed under the law anyway. So the forever principle is shot down.

There is NO command to build a building to bring a tithe of filthy lucre to.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Rudy

The tithe you are speaking of was food items as you know. If no expiration date then by your logic I can tithe food items. That is if I'm in the food production business.

Our Lord was telling the Pharisees no big deal about their remarks on tithing food items. They tithed food as commanded.

There is NO record of a transition from tithing food items under the law to filthy lucre for the new testament church.

Also not everyone tithed under the law anyway. So the forever principle is shot down.

There is NO command to build a building to bring a tithe of filthy lucre to.

I'm in the food production business...I can (and do) take a huge basket of organic food to church and give it to everyone (or just to the ministry) but they will still expect a check or money order, or cash or in the case of my church paypal online on Sunday.

Food offerings are NOT considered a tithe today, that is strictly money.