The Current PAJC Beliefs

[tv1a]

If you are referring to my posts, I have not said repentance is not a requirement for salvation. I said repentance is not a requirement to be filled with the Holy Ghost... BIG DIFFERENCE.... There is not one single scripture which suggest repentance is necessary for the Holy Ghost. It is a tradition based on a loose translation of repentance. Maybe I have to put in the terms so easy a caveman can understand it. Repentance is essential for salvation. Repentance is not essential to receive the Holy Ghost. Read carefully before spouting off what you think someone is trying to say. I have no desire to hijack the thread, but the misrepresentaton of what I said needed to be addressed.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

I think this is all a misrepresentation of facts.

Those of the so-called PCI camp view Acts 2:38 completely different than I, and traditional Apostolics, do. It matters because it seems there is an attempt to place less and less importance on the NECESSITY of water baptism and the Holy Ghost baptism. I mean, my goodness people, some of you have even went off the deep end and claimed repentance is not necessary to receive the Spirit of God!

The big dfference I see is that some of us believe obedience to Acts 2:38 is necessary for salvation. Others believe it is just a second blessing that would be terrific to receive if you ever get around to it. Those folks SAY they preach Acts 2:38, but I don't believe it.

The reason I don't believe it is because of the vitriol spewn on anyone who says this is THE way to respond to the gospel. If you loved the message, you wouldn't find ways to rip and tear it.

Let's not ..........-foot around the issue here. Some of you no longer believe it is necessary to be baptized in Jesus name, and receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Some don't even believe repentance is a requirement. This. my dear misguided friends, is the very definition of backslid. What is even worse is that you lead others into this heresy.

Now, go ahead and crucify me if you can't handle what I just said.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by tv1a

If you are referring to my posts, I have not said repentance is not a requirement for salvation. I said repentance is not a requirement to be filled with the Holy Ghost... BIG DIFFERENCE.... There is not one single scripture which suggest repentance is necessary for the Holy Ghost. It is a tradition based on a loose translation of repentance. Maybe I have to put in the terms so easy a caveman can understand it. Repentance is essential for salvation. Repentance is not essential to receive the Holy Ghost. Read carefully before spouting off what you think someone is trying to say. I have no desire to hijack the thread, but the misrepresentaton of what I said needed to be addressed.

I love it when PAJCers can't agree on doctrine.

[tv1a]

#2 is probably the case more often than not...

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Anyone who genuinely recieves the Spirit I rejoice if they did if they follow it then it will lead them to the truth if not:
1. their experience was not geniune
2. the experience was genuine but they ceased to follow it.

[tv1a]

I don't fall into anyone's label. I am a sorjourner for truth. I go where the evidence leads... It's easier that way.


I've noticed the wording in your some of your statements. You say water baptism and Holy Ghost baptism are important. PP and Epley say it's necessary. I'm just a thinker in this virtual world. There is a huge difference between important and necessary. Secular example. It is important to me that my kids to make the A-B Honor Roll. My wife believes it is necessary for my kids to make the A-B honor roll. There is an intensity when someone believes something is necessary.

I've seen two views use the same scripture and come up with different views. I'm not getting solid answers on my questions. A couple have attempted to explain on the surface, but the follow up questions were all but ignored. So in fairness to both sides (as if any one cares about my opinion). I would appreciate if parties from both views would e-mail me 20-25 scriptures which best represents their views. I'd reather read the scriptures both sides are using without the personal interpretation of scripture. Plus this is a good excercise in critical thinking.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I love it when PAJCers can't agree on doctrine.

[SDG]

TV both are important and necessary ... Baptism is Necessary for obedience .... and the baptism of the Holy Ghost is God given for power.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Bump for Bro. Epley?

Who are the spiritually disabled?????????????

[Felicity]

I believe there is more to baptism and the need to be baptized than just a test of obedience but I believe disobedience to a direct command of Christ and the men He chose to be His apostles and who set down apostolic precedent and doctrine will have very serious consequence.

If a person knows nothing more than that they are commanded to be baptized ... and they don't understand what it's all about ....... it's reason enough to be baptized. Just do it! There's no excuse under the sun why a person shouldn't.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I believe there is more to baptism and the need to be baptized than just a test of obedience.

A necessary first step ... for all repentant believers

A wonderful and glorious experience ... of identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ .... Here are what some writers have said:

Alaxander Campbell (1866) says "Baptism is designed to introduce the subjects of it into the participation of the blessings of the death and resurrection of Christ." (p.3)

Martin Luther (1530) Baptism is no human trifle, but instituted by God himself...It is of the greatest importance that we esteem Baptism excellent, glorious exalted for which we contend and fight chiefly, because the world is now so full of sects clamoring that Baptism is an external thing and that external things are of no benefit." (p12.)

Robert E. Webber states "When we enter into the waters of baptism, we enter into a divine connection with the suffering of Jesus and with his resurrection. We are brought into a pattern of light that is an actual identification with Jesus. Baptism is therefore not only an identification with Christ but a calling to live the baptized life. The calling which baptism symbolizes gives concrete form to our spirituality." (p19).

Jack Resse says, "Undergoing baptism implies that we are changing cultures. It reminds us of the seriousness of our decision to wear the name of Christ, to be his disciples. It celebrates the union of the divine and human, not only in our Lord and savior, but in ever-increasing ways in our lives as we serve the God who met us at the rivers edge." (p.1).

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Felicity

I believe there is more to baptism and the need to be baptized than just a test of obedience but I believe disobedience to a direct command of Christ and the men He chose to be His apostles and who set down apostolic precedent and doctrine will have very serious consequence.

If a person knows nothing more than that they are commanded to be baptized ... and they don't understand what it's all about ....... it's reason enough to be baptized. Just do it! There's no excuse under the sun why a person shouldn't.

Absolutely agree.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Who are the spiritually disabled?????????????

Those that have believed on the Lord, but due to being raised in and influenced by other denominations teaching. Due to having had their lives changed by the word and prayer, they cannot understand what you are preaching, or why they need more. The have faith that they are saved, love the Lord and serve Him to the best of their understanding.

Romans 4.5 "But to him who DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES on Him who justifies the UNGODLY, his FAITH is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness APART FROM WORKS.