The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

[Esaias]

Raffi, excellent work!

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Raffi, excellent work!

Too convoluted, or cumbersome, for my agreement.

When it comes to Romans 7, I like this commentary (emphasis added) from John Gill:

John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible

For we know that the law is spiritual,....
We who have a spiritual understanding of the law, who have been led into the true nature of it by the Spirit of God, know by experience that that itself is "spiritual"; and therefore can never be the cause of sin or death: the law may be said to be "spiritual", because it comes from the Spirit of God; and reaches to the spirit of man; it requires truth in the inward parts; spiritual service and obedience; a serving of it with our minds; a worshipping of God in spirit and truth; a loving of him with all our hearts and souls, as well as a performance of all the outward acts of religion and duty; and because it cannot be truly obeyed and conformed to without the assistance of the Spirit of God. To this spirituality of the law the apostle opposes himself,

but I am carnal, sold under sin:
from hence to the end of the chapter many are of opinion, that the apostle speaks in the person of an unregenerate man, or of himself as unregenerate; but nothing is more clear, than that he speaks all along of himself in the first person, "I am carnal":, &c. αυτος εγω, "I myself", as in Romans 7:25, and in the present tense of what he then was and found; whereas, when he speaks of his unregenerate state, and how it was with him under the first convictions of sin, he speaks of them as things past, Romans 7:5; besides, several things which are said by the apostle can neither agree with him, nor any other, but as regenerate; such as to "hate evil", "delight in the law of God", and "serve it with the mind", Romans 7:15. Moreover, the distinctions between flesh and spirit, the inward and the outward man, and the struggle there is between them, are to be found in none but regenerate persons; and to say no more, the thanksgiving for deliverance from sin by Christ can only come from such; nor are any of the things said inapplicable to men that are born again, as will appear by the consideration of them as they follow: for when the apostle says, "I am carnal"; his meaning is, either that he was so by nature, and as he saw himself when sin through the law became exceeding sinful to him; or as he might be denominated from the flesh or corruption of nature which was still in him, and from the infirmities of the flesh he was attended with; just as the Corinthians, though sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, are said to be "carnal" on account of their envying, strife, and divisions, 1 Corinthians 3:1, or in comparison of the "spiritual" law of God, which was now before him, and in which he was beholding his face as in a glass, and with which when compared, the holiest man in the world must be reckoned carnal. He adds, "sold under sin"; he did not "sell himself" to work wickedness, as Ahab, 1 Kings 21:25, and others; he was passive and not active in it; and when at any time he with his flesh served the law of sin, he was not a voluntary, but an involuntary servant; besides, this may be understood of his other I, his carnal I, his unrenewed self, the old man which is always under sin, when the spiritual I, the new man, is never under the law of sin, but under the governing influence of the grace of God.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Too convoluted, or cumbersome, for my agreement.

When it comes to Romans 7, I like this commentary (emphasis added) from John Gill:

I, too, agree perfectly with John Gill. Paul is including ANY BELIEVER, as well as himself, in the state of Romans 7 if one tries to serve God by forcing obedience to commandments.

Coincidentally, I am talking about that very thing in the same section of the forum here called
"Resurrection in Romans 8:10-11 not from the grave".

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Too convoluted, or cumbersome, for my agreement.

When it comes to Romans 7, I like this commentary (emphasis added) from John Gill:

According to Gill and that view which he succinctly states, Paul was then, at the time he wrote Romans, enslaved to the law of sin and spiritually dead. Yet this utterly contradicts everything else Paul stated about a) himself, and b) Christians in general.

A good article on Romans 7 can be found here: https://www.gospeltruth.net/1837LTPC...experience.htm

"In the 20th verse he repeats what he had said before, "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Is that the habitual character and experience of a Christian? I admit that a Christian may fall so low that this language may apply to him; but if this is his general character, how does it differ from that of an impenitent sinner? If this is the habitual character of a Christian, there is not a word of truth in the scripture representations, that the saints are those who really obey God; for here is one called a Christian of whom it is said expressly that he never does obey.

"I find then a law, that when I would do good, evil is present within me." Here he speaks of the action of the carnal propensities, as being so constant and so prevalent that he calls it a "law." "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man." Here is the great stumbling-block. Can it be said of an impenitent sinner that he "delights" in the law of God? I answer, yes. I know the expression is a strong one, but the apostle was using strong language all along, on both sides. It is no stronger language than the prophet Isaiah uses in chapter lviii. He was describing as wicked and rebellious a generation as ever lived. He says, "Cry aloud, spare not; lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins." Yet he goes on to say of this very people, "Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God; they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they TAKE DELIGHT in approaching to God." Here is one instance of impenitent sinners manifestly delighting in approaching to God. So in Ezekiel xxxiii. 32. "And lo, thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not." The prophet had been telling how wicked they were. "And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they show much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness." Here were impenitent sinners, plainly enough, yet they loved to hear the eloquent prophet. How often do ungodly sinners delight in eloquent preaching or powerful reasoning, by some able minister! It is to them an intellectual feast. And sometimes they are so pleased with it, as really to think they love the word of God. This is consistent with entire depravity of heart and enmity against the true character of God. Nay, it sets their depravity in a stronger light, because they know and approve the right, and yet do the wrong.

So, notwithstanding this delight in the law, he says, "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Here the words, "I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord," are plainly a parenthesis, and brake in upon the train of thought. Then he sums up the whole matter, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

It is as if he had said, My better self, my unbiased judgment, my conscience, approves the law of God; but the law in my members, my passions, have such a control over me that I still disobey. Remember, the apostle was describing the habitual character of one who was wholly under the dominion of sin. It was irrelevant to his purpose to adduce the experience of a Christian. He was vindicating the law, and therefore it was necessary for him to take the case of one who was under the law. If it is Christian experience, he was reasoning against himself, for if it is Christian experience, this would prove, not only that the law is inefficacious for the subduing of passion and the sanctification of men, but that the gospel also is inefficacious. Christians are under grace, and it is irrelevant, in vindicating the law, to adduce the experience of those who are not under the law, but under grace."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Raffi

Friends, I am very sorry for the delay in getting back. I was away at my job for a couple of days and unable to get back to these posts. I actually did type up a reply to Mike's question about David's salvation, but I was using my smart phone, and the battery died just before I hit send and I lost that post. It frustrated me because I felt satisfied with my answer, and did not want to retype it. But since I have no choice I will attempt to rewrite it again now.

So, how do I see David's salvation? I presume this question is in response to Romans 4:6-8. Which quotes Psalm 32:1-2.

I personally hold to the view that David, like ALL Old Testament Saints was saved the exact same way we are saved today: namely, by Grace through faith in Messiah, that is, by a corresponding act of faith in the Divine Promise of the Redeemer.

That does not address my question though, so I need to make it clearer.

Was he saved in his lifetime BEFORE the cross occurred?

[mfblume]

[Raffi]

To your question, It is my belief that David WAS saved even in his dispensation, and he was saved by the Messiah to whom he looked forward to in faith.

I say this because I believe that David's faith met all the conditions of true Saving Faith.
In Psalm 51, a Psalm of repentance and restoration sung by David himself, we have a breakdown almost point-for-point of the Primary Principles of "New" Testament Salvation.

In Psalm 51:1-2, David acknowledges that he is dependent solely upon the MERCY of God. Not according to the Daily Sacrifice, but simply according to God's LOVE. Based solely on his faith in Divine Compassion to "blot out transgressions". David had faith in God's ability to wash away iniquity and cleanse one from sin.

David admits his sinfulness before God (Ps. 51:3-4), but also admits that he believes that God had a plan to redeem him from his sin (Ps. 51:7-9). David fully expresses hope in God for His power and His willingness to cleanse him.

In Ps. 51:10-12, David claims for himself the "pure heart" and "steadfast spirit" that later Prophets would foresee of the NEW Covenant (Jer. 31:33; Ez. 11:19; 36:26).
You see, David is praying to be delivered not only from the physical consequences of sin, he is praying to be delivered from the very presence of sin. He is praying to be saved. His desire is to be changed from within . . . transformed spiritually.

To me this is an incredible portrait of "New" Testament Salvation in the "Old" Testament.

David acknowledges his faith that God will forgive sins as long as the person REPENTS
Consider how meaningful Ps. 51:16-17 is.

And what is more, I believe that Psalm 51 represents David's plea to be RESTORED to the Salvation he already knew was real. I say this because in this Psalm David begs God NOT to remove the Holy Spirit from him (v.11). Yes, I believe David had the Holy Spirit (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2). David had the Holy Spirit unto Salvation and the forgiveness of his sins, but he did not have the Holy Spirit in FULLNESS. But, I believe that David's receiving of the Holy Spirit WAS unto Salvation (i.e., Regeneration).

Peace

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Esaias

According to Gill and that view which he succinctly states, Paul was then, at the time he wrote Romans, enslaved to the law of sin and spiritually dead."

It looks like you are referencing v. 23-25. Gill gives a solid explanation, and highlights the first person element.

[mfblume]

Gill indicated clearly that the experience Paul described throughout chapter 7 is one that regenerate or unregenearte man will both face if they approach serving God with a law-keeping method.

Rom_7:25, and then closes the account which stood thus in his experience, and does in the experience of every regenerate man; that with his renewed mind he served the holy law of God from a principle of grace, and with his fleshly and carnal part the law of sin.

It is a fact that when ANYONE serves God with the flesh, they will inadvertently serve the law of sin and death because of the force of sin in that flesh. And all the while the mind will be fully willing to serve God instead, but unable to carry that through in the flesh..

Romans 7:25 KJV I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Raffi

To your question, It is my belief that David WAS saved even in his dispensation, and he was saved by the Messiah to whom he looked forward to in faith.

I say this because I believe that David's faith met all the conditions of true Saving Faith.
In Psalm 51, a Psalm of repentance and restoration sung by David himself, we have a breakdown almost point-for-point of the Primary Principles of "New" Testament Salvation.

In Psalm 51:1-2, David acknowledges that he is dependent solely upon the MERCY of God. Not according to the Daily Sacrifice, but simply according to God's LOVE. Based solely on his faith in Divine Compassion to "blot out transgressions". David had faith in God's ability to wash away iniquity and cleanse one from sin.

David admits his sinfulness before God (Ps. 51:3-4), but also admits that he believes that God had a plan to redeem him from his sin (Ps. 51:7-9). David fully expresses hope in God for His power and His willingness to cleanse him.

In Ps. 51:10-12, David claims for himself the "pure heart" and "steadfast spirit" that later Prophets would foresee of the NEW Covenant (Jer. 31:33; Ez. 11:19; 36:26).
You see, David is praying to be delivered not only from the physical consequences of sin, he is praying to be delivered from the very presence of sin. He is praying to be saved. His desire is to be changed from within . . . transformed spiritually.

To me this is an incredible portrait of "New" Testament Salvation in the "Old" Testament.

David acknowledges his faith that God will forgive sins as long as the person REPENTS
Consider how meaningful Ps. 51:16-17 is.

And what is more, I believe that Psalm 51 represents David's plea to be RESTORED to the Salvation he already knew was real. I say this because in this Psalm David begs God NOT to remove the Holy Spirit from him (v.11). Yes, I believe David had the Holy Spirit (1 Sam. 16:13; 2 Sam. 23:2). David had the Holy Spirit unto Salvation and the forgiveness of his sins, but he did not have the Holy Spirit in FULLNESS. But, I believe that David's receiving of the Holy Spirit WAS unto Salvation (i.e., Regeneration).

Peace

I appreciate your position, but cannot fully agree, since although David surely depended on the cross, though he knew nothing about its details, and he is definitely saved NOW, I cannot accept the idea hew was saved in his lifetime. Not until Atonement was actually made in time and space could David be saved. David's atonement was not available until Christ made that atonement. When He ascended up into heaven and made atonement, then and not before were all people before the cross like David actually saved.