Homosexuality question

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by Aquila

True.

What couples do in their bedrooms is entirely between them and God, unless they consult their elder four counsel. Personally, I believe they do well to revel in their enjoyment of one another and make intimacy a joyous and loving union that includes play and exploration as they find it desirable.

Love (emotional and physical) between human beings is perfectly natural and by design. However, my issue with deviant forms of physical intimacy is that they are primarily grounded more in "lust" than true biblical "love". This, in my opinion, is the heart of all sexual sin - exploitation for personal gratification. Our sexuality should evolve into a loving and committed life long experience. Deviant forms of sexuality don't fit this description. So, for me at least, it's not the activities done in the bedroom that bother me. It's the essence of the motivation.

What I don't understand is HOW someone, not necessarily you, can speak so forcefully and knowledgeable about other folks deviant forms of sexuality. Do folks go door to door asking married couples if they have anal sex? I think there's a whole bunch of supposition that makes some people feel better about there own degenerate ways. Good grief.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Abiding Now

What I don't understand is HOW someone, not necessarily you, can speak so forcefully and knowledgeable about other folks deviant forms of sexuality. Do folks go door to door asking married couples if they have anal sex? I think there's a whole bunch of supposition that makes some people feel better about there own degenerate ways. Good grief.

I'm cautious about using the term "deviant" as it relates to sexuality. The reason is that we all have personal preferences, desires, and proclivities. We all have specific needs and desires that bring pleasure and/or fulfillment. The problem is that many of these personal needs and desires are "embarrassing" or "gross" to others, even if we only discuss married "Christian" couples. I believe it's human nature to approach things legalistically. We want a codified "list" of do's and don'ts with which we can measure ourselves against others... and use to sooth our own conscience. Some would have us believe that there is actually only one "position" or "manner" in which to make love and will condemn any variation from their concept. Others focus on specific acts. In my opinion what is most troubling isn't the agreed upon manners or acts between couples but rather it is the intent of the heart. Is what we are doing mutually expressing love and the desire to give our bodies to please our mate's desires, whatever they might be? Or is the action purely selfish and exploitive of our chosen partner? I would be more troubled by what most consider "normal" behavior if it were only exploiting or using a partner (even within Christian marriage) than I would by some behavior considered by many to be "deviant" or "immoral" if it were being done out of love and the desire to surrender one's own body to a loving partner.

That brings us to this topic, homosexuality. Now, these are purely my opinions and my understanding after studying Scripture and seeking truth in prayer. Yes, my opinions and understanding often changes with more information, study, and prayer. But this is where I'm at in my journey. In my opinion, the Bible condemns this behavior because it is inherently exploitive of another human being. Yes, many have stated that couples who engage in this behavior can be just as loving and devoted as any heterosexual couple. However, statistics indicate that the vast majority of these relationships don't last and are considered to be far more transient than heterosexual relationships. In a very real way, their desire to legally marry may be rooted in their hopes to stabilize their relationships and make them more permanent. The problem is that no law can change the human heart. I predict that those who are vehemently fighting for what they perceive to be the panacea of "gay marriage" will soon discover the emotional and financial devastation of "gay divorce". I don't believe the vast majority will experience the permanence and stability they hope to find. I believe "gay marriage" will prove to only complicate the very real issues they face. Perhaps gay marriage will open the eyes of some of them and cause them to pause and reconsider their perspective or their lifestyle. Only time will tell.

So, in my opinion, when it comes to sex it isn't the behavior or the act itself that is the root of sexual sin... it's the exploitive and selfish nature of the behavior.

To be whole... we must also be happy. I sincerely want to see every human being living happy and joy filled lives. I don't want to deny anyone the right to pursue what makes them happy as long as it isn't exploitive or harmful to another. However, I believe it is our God given duty to warn people regarding God's displeasure regarding "sin"... which, I believe, essentially relates to how we treat Him (being our creator) and one another. Any behavior that exploits or uses another... or will cause us to suffer the pain or harm of having been exploited or used by another should be condemned.

[rosejones]

Homosexuality is not natural. The natural design is for man and woman. They can conceive children. It is not natural to couple male with male and female with female. It would be like trying to fit two screws together or two nuts together and then say, "See, it's natural for them to go together."

1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Rom. 1:26-28 has much to say about the situation. The Bible, of course, condemns homosexuality. It is also not rocket science to discern that homosexual marriage is also condemned. But our society does not rely on the Bible for its moral truth. Instead, it relies on humanistic and relativistic morals upon which it builds its ethical structure.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by rosejones

Homosexuality is not natural. The natural design is for man and woman. They can conceive children. It is not natural to couple male with male and female with female. It would be like trying to fit two screws together or two nuts together and then say, "See, it's natural for them to go together."

1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Rom. 1:26-28 has much to say about the situation. The Bible, of course, condemns homosexuality. It is also not rocket science to discern that homosexual marriage is also condemned. But our society does not rely on the Bible for its moral truth. Instead, it relies on humanistic and relativistic morals upon which it builds its ethical structure.

I believe that being gay might be "natural"... but please try to understand what I mean by "natural".

Paul wrote...

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

There is "no good thing" in our flesh. Why? The Fall. When our first ancestors fell from grace in the Garden of Eden sin entered the world and with it came shame, guilty, and the curse. Under the curse our flesh underwent some serious changes that affected us down to our very genetics. We began to age. We became susceptible to disease and sickness. Women began to experience menses and the hormonal imbalances that come with it. Children were now born with deformities, chemical and hormonal imbalances that effect development and behaviors. We are FALLEN. We went from living in supernatural perfection to... being natural. Being natural, we're susceptible to all the influences that brute beasts are effected by. Lust, raging hormones, fear, paranoia, and the list can go on and on. Since the fall... there can be found no good thing in our flesh. This flesh and it's biology is no longer perfect. Let's not perpetuate the MYTH that human beings are born perfect, because we're not. Birth defects abound. Hormonal imbalances in the womb and in development are present in varying degrees throughout our species and yes... we tend to act more like animals... unless we're born again and experience "regeneration". However, even with our spirit being regenerated... we're still trapped in this fallen flesh.

Anyone who doesn't believe that hormones and biology can influence behavior has never lived with a woman. lol

No, seriously. Chemical imbalances and hormones play a major role in not only development and general behavior... but also in our sexuality. Don't believe me? One word... puberty. And some blind studies have shown that some people respond to same gender pheromones while others don't. Take in mind... no one knew what they were being exposed to while their brain activity was being monitored. Among those participants who claimed to be gay they discovered that the pleasure centers of the brain activated when smelling same gender pheromones. Not so with straight participants. A very narrow percentage of those participating had pleasure centers activated in the brain by both gender pheromones.

My point? My point is, we're all born broken. Yes, we're born fallen creatures. Sinners by... nature. Therefore, it shouldn't surprise us if some are born with a proclivity or predisposition to violence or any other sinful activity due to neurological issues, hormonal issues, or genetics.

In fact, Scripture admonishes us to move beyond our "natural" state...

1 Corinthians 2:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

The natural man is a sinner by nature. It's natural, it's a part of the natural man's very nature. Therefore, when a homosexual says, "I was born this way", we should realize that YES... he or she was born that way. They were born a sinner like everyone else. This is simply their sin, their infirmity, their thorn in the flesh, their proclivity, their besetting sin.

I think that if we keep this in mind it will help us to demonstrate true Christian understanding and compassion. They are indeed in the grips of the sinful nature residing in their flesh. Therefore, only God can regenerate them and change them. They can't change themselves. We can't change them. We have to allow the grace of God to connect them with Him, for only He can bring the necessary changes that He desires.

So drop the myth that we're all born perfect and choose sin. We're born sinners with a sinful nature. There is no good thing in our flesh.

[shazeep]

very nice, Aquila--my ongoing comments on Original Sin notwithstanding!

[Dante]

Homosexuals need to hear the message of grace and mercy; not a message of discrimination and condemnation.

[shazeep]

ty. when you manifest the solution, the problem disappears. that's what grace is.

[Abiding Now]

Liars need to hear the message of grace and mercy; not a message of discrimination and condemnation.

[Abiding Now]

Adulterers need to hear the message of grace and mercy; not a message of discrimination and condemnation.

[Abiding Now]

Thieves need to hear the message of grace and mercy; not a message of discrimination and condemnation.