Apostoic worship??

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Boy, I was gone for how long?

Too long?

[Esaias]

The charismatic movement bought into the idea that the anointing was some kind of palpable feeling that invariably produced physical sensations and actions (gyrations, jerks, burning sensations, etc). This was picked up from earlier Pentecostals and Holiness people who - against the warnings issued by people like Charles Parham, Frank Bartleman, Evan Roberts, Watchman Nee, and others - fell into many deceptions.

This emphasis on "palpable anointing" had occurred earlier during Methodist meetings, Stone-Campbell meetings (Cane Ridge, etc), Finney's revival meetings, and Edwards' meetings, Whitefield's and even earlier among Anabaptists, Seperatists, and others. The result was ALWAYS the same: people chasing superficial religious highs, going from one meeting to the next looking for a bigger "fix", an overabundance of charlatans promising the next biggest thing, descent into animalistic behaviour, increases in what looks like demon possession as is common in Hindu, West African and other shamanic religions, scandalous increase in sexual immorality, fornication, and general sensuousness, and financial embezzlements by purported "leaders" of the "new thing". Revival preachers like Wesley, Finney, Barton Stone, Roberts, etc all had to contend against these things, which they felt were a carnal if not satanic distraction from the work God was actually doing in trying to promote holiness, faith, and sobriety. These manifestations always brought revivals into disrepute and in some cases literally destroyed the preaching, with everyone backslid in a short time.

Pentecostal pioneers ALWAYS warned about chasing sensations and sensationalism. They warned against putting a worship experience in front of a BIBLE experience.

Unfortunately, people don't generally listen. As a result, people like Benny Hinn, Rodney Howard-Brown, and Todd White keep on truckin'.

[Esaias]

The modern "charismatic worship music" movement (IHOP being one of the centers) is what's left of the Vineyard Movement. IHOP used to be a Vineyard church, apparently. Vineyard (especially Toronto Airport Vineyard) promoted music as the next big thing. Tons of music were produced, some of which was actually pretty good musically. But the goal was to create a powerful music-induced "experience of the presence of God".

Vineyard came from the Calvary Chapel group, which was one of the original "Jesus People" groups out of the 60s. Musically and worship-wise they and others were a Christianized alternative to the mind-blowing LSD fueled "acid rock" concerts of the 60s. But both movements had the same goal: to use music to CREATE a powerful, emotional response in the audience.

One of the founders of the Contemporary Christian Worship Music Movement said the Beatles were anointed by God but squandered it, and that God was going to restore that musical anointing to the modern worship movement in the charismatic churches. This was said back in 92 or 93 I think, maybe earlier. He made a big case that the Beatles' music literally drive the crowds into religious ecstasy, and that same anointing was coming to the charismatic worship scene. Vineyard, "the River" movement (RHB, etc), Hillsong, and IHOP are the current phases of that same movement: same people, same theology, same methodology.

And the same results.

[Esaias]

The music of the modern Vineyard-Hillsong-IHOP musicians has its origins in the Jesus People music of the 60s. That was originally a folk-rock style, emulating the music coming out of Laurel Canyon (Jefferson Airplane, Mamas and the Papas, etc etc). Both styles of music were designed to "create an experience", one with the help of LSD, and the other with the help of "the Spirit". Both movements put music and band performance at the CENTER, the "message" whether Jesus or Leary was secondary to "the experience" the audience got as a direct result of "soaking in the musical now" of the event.

Soaking? That's straight out of any Greatful Dead concert. 20 minute improvised songs, "going by the feeling", letting the group including the audience help give direction to the music with eyes closed and everybody in contemplative meditation.... yep, standard 60s acid party methodology.

And the acid party methodology was crafted by researchers such as Ken Kesey, Timothy Leary, " Professor" Owsley, and others - who, it was revealed in Congressional testimony in the 70s, all worked for the CIA.

[Esaias]

And those researchers and musicians were simply reinventing the old standard shamanic trance practices found amongst the peyote eating drummers of the Southwest, the ayahuasca drinking shamans of South America, and the yogi transcendentalists of India, the Sufi qawwali musicians of Pakistan, etc.

The same methodologies were used by the Dionysian Mystery initiates of ancient Greece and other Mystery Schools of that time, who likely borrowed them from Babylon.

[Esaias]

Now, good music is good music. And good music is often subject to personal interpretation and preference. Pavarotti can make a grown man weep with the power of his presentation, Fateh Ali Khan (Sufi Muslim religious singer) has been known to literally drive audiences into beating their heads on the stage until they bled and knocked themselves unconscious. Some Byzantine chants will almost propel you into an out of body experience. Men have been driven to war frenzy to kill and die listening to the beating of drums and droning of bagpipes. Fifes and drums steeled the nerves of millions of men standing on line watching the cannonballs scream through the air into their ranks.

Music can be powerful. It can do almost everything drugs and religion can do. It can drive people to throw themselves on grenades to save their friends, it can drive a woman to marry a man, it can drive people into fornication, it can spearhead a revival of holiness, or it can drive people insane, literally. It can even make plants grow or wither.

But NONE of that is what determines the spirituality of worship, or determines what worship is acceptable to God. Music is music. Worship is worship. Music has a place in worship, but if you think "music" as soon as you hear the term "worship" then you do not have a Biblical, apostolic, CHRISTIAN understanding of worship.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Wow, I said the same thing.

Every time I log in this place is more and more like the twighlight zone.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

Every time I log in this place is more and more like the twighlight zone.

I mean, what was with the Aquila incantation?

He was posting back and forth with MTD, and then all of a sudden Esaias is getting an incantation from Aquila. Please, clue me in on what I missed?

[houston]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I mean, what was with the Aquila incantation?

He was posting back and forth with MTD, and then all of a sudden Esaias is getting an incantation from Aquila. Please, clue me in on what I missed?

Not to go by “feelings,”. but I didn’t like what I felt when I read it. I’m not above rebuking people on here... (totally worth the ban), but Esaias was well to refer to one as a “witch.” The more that people speak, the more they reveal who they are.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

Not to go by “feelings,”. but I didn’t like what I felt when I read it. I’m not above rebuking people on here... (totally worth the ban), but Esaias was well to refer to one as a “witch.” The more that people speak, the more they reveal who they are.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Don't allow them to get to you Michael. Something else is happening here. Perhaps they've been tempted to go "charismatic". Perhaps a loved one left the truth and is caught up in one of these "charismatic" cults. When the heat and accusation you're drawing is clearly unjustified... you can be assured that the issue isn't you or the topic at hand. There is some deeper pain, fear, or concern that is crying out to be addressed in your accuser.

Esaias is a generally a good and well intentioned person. Maybe this subject is more serious to Esaias for reasons that we're not aware of. Should he not wish to share them, we should at the very least pray for him. Everyone is entitled to a bad day, and even a bad attitude, every now and then.

Father, I pray that you bless and encourage Esaias. Let Esaias feel your love and grace. Lord, I pray that you minister to any unspoken circumstance that might be troubling Esaias. And Lord, allow Esaias to also see and feel the love and appreciate we have for Esaias being our friend. In Jesus name. Amen.

I can't find it in the thread, but what blow torched Aquila? Brother Esaias, did you have a EVang.Benincasa moment?